jlt v. hailthorn

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hailthorn011
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jlt v. hailthorn

Post by hailthorn011 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The sun rises, the birds chirp, and a stone is played on a Go board signifying the birth of a brand new game. The abstract anomalies of life are ever present in a juxtaposition between salvation and damnation. My first move signifies both my strength and my uncertainty.
Good game to you!
Last edited by hailthorn011 on Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Slava Ukraini!
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jlt
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Re: Jlt v. hailthorn

Post by jlt »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black Captures: 0 White Captures: 0
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Have a nice game!

Note: the second letter of my username is an L, not an I.
Not much to say here. I am fine both with a crossed opening and a parallel opening.
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hailthorn011
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Re: jlt v. hailthorn

Post by hailthorn011 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black Captures: 0 White Captures: 0
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I fixed the title!
Slava Ukraini!
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jlt
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Re: jlt v. hailthorn

Post by jlt »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black Captures: 0 White Captures: 0
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Let's not play a star point here. 3-3 invasions become a bit repetitive with modern AI style, so at least we will have a 3-4 joseki.
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hailthorn011
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Re: jlt v. hailthorn

Post by hailthorn011 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black Captures: 0 White Captures: 0
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
My goal with this move is to hopefully work with my right side. I considered my favorite opening, the sanrensei, but decided against it.
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jlt
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Re: jlt v. hailthorn

Post by jlt »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black Captures: 0 White Captures: 0
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
OK let's try something crazy. I have absolutely no experience with this joseki, but I guess I have to try to gain experience.

I have considered other options as well:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black Captures: 0 White Captures: 0
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
"a" might lead to the usual joseki C6 C4 D6 F3 D10 (or C10). That would be good for white as White gets a big corner + sente. Black might also want to play the avalanche D4 C4 E3 etc. and start a kind of double-wing formation.

"b" prevents the formation of a moyo on the bottom right, I think the result would be fine.

Tenuki (for instance at "c") is possible, however Black doesn't need to respond to the kakari and can press white down on the bottom left, I am not sure I like the result.

So I try D8, this pincers the D5 stone and at the same time works well with D16. Probably this will lead to a bad sequence since I haven't studied the joseki but let's try anyway.
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hailthorn011
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Re: jlt v. hailthorn

Post by hailthorn011 »

OMG! White went for the pincer. I wanted to add an addendum to my last move saying I was going to find the pincer to be a very interesting possibility. I'm very happy my opponent played a move like this because it's going to force me to go back to the drawing board and consider my options. I'm very excited by this move and that's probably silly but here we are. It's a not a move I saw very frequently. I feel like it is a good move because it marries well with White's stone at D16. Naturally my first instinct is to play F5. I could also attach at B3 which would give me a wall potentially and weaken white at D8. Of course white could play B4 which again is a position I feel favors white in this scenario. If white plays D4 I don't believe that behooves white. Or at least it diminishes the value of playing the pincer.

I'm thinking through this move significantly because it will have significant ramifications for the game ahead. If I'm being honest I'm not 100% confident in my ability to respond to this move adequately. Now a crazy possibility presents itself to me. I could return pincer at D10. That is a move I would consider in a real time game. That said I feel it weakens my position significantly on the board. I'm sure a stronger player will look at this inward discussion and think me silly for not simply extending. But I did want to try to take this environment into consideration and give a more in depth look at my thought process. If I'm being honest I've probably thought more about this situation than any previous situation in my life.

Hm. As I've been typing I've been playing out the possible scenarios. And I kind of like B3 more and more. I would still get a wall out of that scenario but again white's pincer sort of hurts a wall there. I could potentially play C4 but again I think that would be a mistake. F4 is another move I consider. But I feel again it would be a mistake given the pincer.

Maybe I'm overthinking. But I do feel my reply here will dictate the direction of the rest of the game. So I think in this case I will trust my instinct and play F5.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black Captures: 0 White Captures: 0
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Slava Ukraini!
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jlt
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Re: jlt v. hailthorn

Post by jlt »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black Captures: 0 White Captures: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I don't think tenuki is an option, this looks too painful.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
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$$ -----------------------[/go]
Attaching at C5 seems bad:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
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$$ -----------------------[/go]
This looks a bit like the normal joseki but D8 is too close to the wall.

The two-space jump is fast, but leaves a weakness.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
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$$ -----------------------[/go]
Maybe the weakness is not really serious after all, White can manage the crosscut thanks to the stone :w1: but I don't like the shape, it looks like Black has too many forcing moves.

So I'll go for the one-space jump. It's slower but more solid.
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hailthorn011
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Re: jlt v. hailthorn

Post by hailthorn011 »

Hey quick question. What scoring are we using?
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jlt
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Re: jlt v. hailthorn

Post by jlt »

Let's say AGA rules with 7.5 komi?
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hailthorn011
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Re: jlt v. hailthorn

Post by hailthorn011 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black Captures: 0 White Captures: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Part of me feels like this is a misplay. But the alternatives don't seem particularly compelling. I considered attaching at C3 but decided that weakens my stones. Then I considered the tenuki but again I don't think my stones are strong enough to play away yet. This move serves to solidify my stones in the region while putting pressure on white's pincer stone.
Slava Ukraini!
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Re: jlt v. hailthorn

Post by jlt »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Black Captures: 0 White Captures: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I didn't expect that move, and I am not sure if this is the best response. That's certainly my instinctive response, but instinct is often wrong. Normally it is always necessary to respond to a shoulder hit... except when it's not necessary.

I could have played elsewhere, like
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
so the bottom group gets out, but what is my stone D8 doing there??

One thing I am a bit concerned about is the continuation, what if Black double hanes afterwards? There are a lot of cutting points for both players, I can't figure out the result of the fight. Black will end up stronger in the center, while White gains some control over the top part of the board, I don't know for which player this is good.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I have also considered this
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
but Black may pincer later, and use the weakness at "a". So I can't make up my mind but I have to make a choice, so let's place the stone and cross fingers.

One thing that makes me confident that the move :w10: I chose for the game is good, is that the exchange :b9: - :w10: seems good for White, as :w10: exerts some influence and strengthens :w6:, while :b9: is apparently not doing much.
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hailthorn011
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Re: jlt v. hailthorn

Post by hailthorn011 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Black Captures: 0 White Captures: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The attachment was expected. I am playing K4 because I feel it is a big move and marries well with my opening. Also I like the look of the board. Nothing is set in...stone *badumtiss* yet though. This is my first game back against a person so while I am certainly trying to do my best I am looking to have fun as well. Hopefully this wasn't a huge mistake!
Slava Ukraini!
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skydyr
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Re: jlt v. hailthorn

Post by skydyr »

hailthorn011 wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black Captures: 0 White Captures: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Part of me feels like this is a misplay. But the alternatives don't seem particularly compelling. I considered attaching at C3 but decided that weakens my stones. Then I considered the tenuki but again I don't think my stones are strong enough to play away yet. This move serves to solidify my stones in the region while putting pressure on white's pincer stone.
This move feels problematic to me, particularly compared to the more usual one space jump to the right. When black jumped out, the implication is that black is letting white build something on the side in exchange for gathering strength to counter-pincer the side stone. This, however, strengthens the stone black could have attacked and so makes the black group less meaningful. Granted, with white's top left corner, black's potential from a counterpincer seems less, but if that wasn't black's aim at all, F5 was not the right move.
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jlt
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Re: jlt v. hailthorn

Post by jlt »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm12 Black Captures: 0 White Captures: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm12
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . f . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . d . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . b a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . c . . . . . . . . e . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
He didn't hane. His move doesn't directly threaten anything. I consider that my corner stones are safe for now; the extension "c" may become a good point later but looks small for now and can't be put to immediate use so I'll save it for later if I have the opportunity. So in principle I am free to tenuki and take a big point like "e". However the two stones E8 have become heavy so I've commited to using them. They can't be used to make territory, any extension around "f" is too far and can be invaded, so they should be considered as a wall. On the other hand, a two-stone wall is pretty useless and can even be attacked, and that's certainly not what I want, so I'd better extend it. A two-space extension like "a" is the common shape when a nobi is already in place. But there are three black stones nearby so is it necessary to play a safer and tighter extension like "b"? On the other hand Black's move :b11: is fast so I feel I have to move fast as well.

The move :b11: is a loose extension from the stones E5, loosely encloses my lower left corner, and maybe aims at building a yonrensei (d). If he plays "d" next, I'll consider the san-san invasion at "e" to take territory. Then the stone :w12: at "a" will be useful to reduce Black's potential, or for any moyo battle that may arise.
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