daniel_the_smith vs Kirby

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:54 am

Kirby and I played a game for fun the other night. In the end I hallucinated an eye for my group and died. I thought you all might be interested in seeing it.

32 was a big mistake for me (played too quickly) that I spent the rest of the game trying to recover from.

emeraldemon · Post by **emeraldemon** » Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:10 am

Why not W34 at D10?

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:14 am

I considered it. I decided to try and follow my original plan (of making black connect underneath), though. It very well might have been better.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:25 am

It is after midnight here, so half of these comments may be drivel...

Move 19 feels too low and too passive. With 18, white got a lot of power.
I'd play something a bit higher, like P4 or O15 or F6. Even K14 is in the right spirit, though it is probably an overplay.

Move 23: This is an overplay. White is too strong. He will make territory while chasing you.
O13 looks better to me - the juncture of two moyos.

Move 26: You attached. He ignored. You must hane to be consistent with the attachment. If you are not willing to follow through with the hane, don't attach.

Move 28: You're trying to get a lot with one stone. The upper side moyo is your major investment. Try E10 or D10.

Move 32: It is the right direction, though tactically unsound. The problem with 32 is really a problem with 28.

Move 38: You are way too thin to play like this. Just cut your losses and take the ko.

Move 50: C3 is huge.

Move 57: B7 wrecks his shape.

Move 90: O12 is consistent.

Move 128: You are heavy and friendless. You can't extend. Maybe Q6?

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:41 am

A few comments

:b19:

- This feels very good to me - it's the last big fuseki move

(ok, P4 is still left and is pretty big too, but it's a moyo game, and now White has now good invasion point).
EDIT (had written 18) :w20:

- Often not sente, as Black cannot be killed with the next move. However, it makes wB12 very sente so it's probably worth responding to.
:b23:

- This is a weak point in White's shape, so I'm not convinced it's overplay, certainly not now Black's alive in the corner. However, P4 looks pretty huge if you're both going to play moyos
:b25:

- Feels odd, but does activate corner aji. :w26:

at D10 feels devastating somehow though, so I'd take D10 instead.
:b27:

- Nice, miai of living or jumping out.
:w28:

- Consistent, sealing in can't be bad.
:b29:

- Why not just connect with A11 and be done with it locally?
:w32:

- Oops! F9 feels like the only move somehow.
:w48:

- I'd take D10 here, and aim for H10. That's at least a good return if the corner doesn't die (which I can't read out!)
:b49:

- Black is very happy to be forced to play here.
:b59:

- Should be C7.
:b89:

- Wrong side, you are strong on this side already.
:w90:

- Heavy, Black can still cut easily. wN10 much safer. wO12 may be possible, but is still cuttable, so could become dead or heavy very easily.
:b91:

- I'd take P4. That way, P9 cut becomes very active.

100+
:w28:

- Way too small, and now you are heavy. O7 appeals. Something to connect anyway.
:w30:

->

- This all helps Black enormously, without making life. :w128: is haunting White now.
:b51:

- bM10 seems better if you really want to attack White, bL10 if you don't think you can. I don't think this thin-ness helps Black at all.
:w60:

- Don't go fishing when your house is on fire

That's all from me anyway.

Harleqin · Post by **Harleqin** » Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:57 am

topazg wrote: - Often not sente, as Black cannot be killed with the next move. However, it makes wB12 very sente so it's probably worth responding to.

I do not understand this comment. The sequence up to :w18:

is simply a well-known gote sequence for White.

- This is a weak point in White's shape, so I'm not convinced it's overplay, certainly not now Black's alive in the corner. However, P4 looks pretty huge if you're both going to play moyos
- Feels odd, but does activate corner aji. at D10 feels devastating somehow though, so I'd take D10 instead.
- Nice, miai of living or jumping out.
- Consistent, sealing in can't be bad.
- Why not just connect with A11 and be done with it locally?

My feeling is that the whole action on the left side is just a pointless quibble. The important points are on the right side, O13 and P4.

- Oops! F9 feels like the only move somehow.

Either that, or White has to follow up with capturing immediately. Since that lets Black destroy the white shape at F8, I do not like this option, but White could then simply play D2 and hope that he can use his thickness to sufficiently reduce the black prospects on the right and lower side.

- I'd take D10 here, and aim for H10. That's at least a good return if the corner doesn't die (which I can't read out!)

H10 is worthless then. You could play H9, but that is also quite slow. I like O13. Nevertheless, D10 is a good option to keep in mind. I think that I would capture the ko at D8, but then protect the corner after E5 (with D3). If Black captures back the ko then, White can play D10.

- Should be C7.

I am not sure about this. The trade resulting from the ko seems almost even to me.

:w96:

is too heavy. White is completely misassessing the balance of strength in this part of the board. It would be better to stay light, e.g. with M5.

:w98:

is an overplay. White needs to strengthen his groups on the right by connecting them, e.g. with O7. White seems to entertain the idea that he is behind, but he is not.

:b101: looks more promising at H5. The idea is to aim at P7 or O7, of course.

100+
- Way too small, and now you are heavy. O7 appeals. Something to connect anyway.

seems completely oblivious to the fact that only living stones can reduce territory. This is really a losing move. It is not small, it has a large negative value. Game over, if I may say so.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:13 am

Harleqin wrote:I do not understand this comment. The sequence up to is simply a well-known gote sequence for White.

Gote seems very big here. :w18:

can be omitted to take a larger point elsewhere surely?

Harleqin wrote:My feeling is that the whole action on the left side is just a pointless quibble. The important points are on the right side, O13 and P4.

It feels like Black's sort of committed himself once he gets a big group though. It's a severe loss to lose it on a tenuki - hard to count the trade for me. Certainly O13 and P4 seem huge.

Harleqin wrote:
:w48: - I'd take D10 here, and aim for H10. That's at least a good return if the corner doesn't die (which I can't read out!)

H10 is worthless then. You could play H9, but that is also quite slow. I like O13. Nevertheless, D10 is a good option to keep in mind. I think that I would capture the ko at D8, but then protect the corner after E5 (with D3). If Black captures back the ko then, White can play D10.

Hmmm. Agreed, H10 is not big enough. I'd still take at D10, but the idea of taking, protecting, and saving D10 is neat.

Harleqin wrote:I am not sure about this. The trade resulting from the ko seems almost even to me.

I'm not sure if it should have been though. The ko seems hard for Black if White simply responds to the top contact. White still has local ko threats.

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:44 am

Thanks for the comments, guys...

re W128, I didn't want to play it but I thought I had to keep black separated to have a chance. I realized immediately afterwards that n2 did the same thing-- in sente. Doh!

Also, when I invaded the upper-right corner, I was hallucinating that L4 gave me a gote eye.

Harlequin, at :w98:

you say I'm not behind. I thought if I just took care of my group, I would get gote and white would protect the upper right-- and then where are my points?

Hm, now that I think about it, maybe defending would have been sente (threatening :w98:

), giving me time to invade the top.

Harleqin · Post by **Harleqin** » Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:03 am

daniel_the_smith wrote:Regarding W128, I didn't want to play it, but I thought I had to keep black separated to have a chance. I realized immediately afterwards that n2 did the same thing-- in sente. Doh!

No, N2 does not separate when Black descends. Besides, Black is quite strong on both sides, so separating is not worth much anyway.

Harleqin, at you say I'm not behind. I thought if I just took care of my group, I would get gote and white would protect the upper right-- and then where are my points?

Count.

Hm, now that I think about it, maybe defending would have been sente (threatening ), giving me time to invade the top.

I would say that you would have miai of invading there or in the top right.

Harleqin · Post by **Harleqin** » Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:20 am

topazg wrote: can be omitted to take a larger point elsewhere surely?

Surely not.

White must fix the shape. Imagine Black pushing out otherwise.

Harleqin wrote:I am not sure about this. The trade resulting from the ko seems almost even to me.

I'm not sure if it should have been though. The ko seems hard for Black if White simply responds to the top contact. White still has local ko threats.

Looking at it again, I agree that Black should not play the ko but let White live instead.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:29 am

Harleqin wrote:
topazg wrote: can be omitted to take a larger point elsewhere surely?

Surely not. White must fix the shape. Imagine Black pushing out otherwise.

Hahaha, whoops! I meant :w20:

all along, I'll update my post :lol:

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:10 am

Harleqin wrote:
daniel_the_smith wrote:Harleqin, at you say I'm not behind. I thought if I just took care of my group, I would get gote and white would protect the upper right-- and then where are my points?

Count.

I actually did count. Maybe I did it wrong.

If I assume some sequence like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Position at move 97 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . X . X O . . . 5 9 7 . | $$ | . . X O . X X . . X X O . O . 4 3 8 . | $$ | . . X O . O O X X O O . . . . X 6 . . | $$ | . . . O . . X O O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . X X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . O X . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | X X O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O . O O O X . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X O X O . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X X . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X . . . . , . . . O O , X . . | $$ | . O X . . X . . . . X . . O X X . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Position at move 97 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . b . . . . . w w w w . | $$ | b b X O . . . b X b X O w w . O O O . | $$ | b b X O . X X b b X X O w O . X O X . | $$ | b b X O . O O X X O O . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . w B O O . . . . O . . b . . | $$ | . X X X O w w . . . . . . . . X b b b | $$ | . . . . O w w . . . . . . X . b b b b | $$ | . . O . w w w . . . . . . . . X b b b | $$ | . w O w O O w . . . . . . . . . b b b | $$ | w B B O y O B . . , . . . . O , X b b | $$ | B B O y O y O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O y O O O X . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | w B O X O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | w B O X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | w O O X X . . . . . X . . . . . . b b | $$ | w O X W X . . . . , . . . O O , X b b | $$ | w O X b b X b b b b X . . O X X . b b | $$ | w O X . b b b b b b b . . . . b b b b | $$ | . . . . b b b b b b b . . . . b b b b | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I get 53.5 (47+komi) for white and 63 for black. This is closer than I thought it was in the game (I wasn't counting the ~10 points in the middle at the time) but white still seems pretty clearly behind to me.

I've been working on my counting lately so it's good to know if I'm doing something wrong...

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:34 am

daniel_the_smith:
i will give you one pointer on your wrong move.
:w1:

is wrong. that is what i call filling dame move.
i would say 'a' is a better move than :w1:

it is subtle but it makes big difference.
if you want to be a strong dan player you must feel the difference of those two moves without thinking.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Position at move 97 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . X . X O . . . 5 9 7 . | $$ | . . X O . X X . . X X O . O . 4 3 8 . | $$ | . . X O . O O X X O O . . . . X 6 . . | $$ | . . . O . . X O O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . X X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . O X . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | X X O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O . O O O X . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X O X O . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . X O X O . . . . . . . . . a . X . . | $$ | . O O X X . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X . . . . , . . . O O , X . . | $$ | . O X . . X . . . . X . . O X X . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

your move leaves this weakness.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Position at move 97 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . X . X O . . . O O O . | $$ | . . X O . X X . . X X O . O . X O X . | $$ | . . X O . O O X X O O . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . X O O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . X X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . O X . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | X X O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O . O O O X . . . . . . 7 6 O . . . | $$ | . X O X O . . . . . . . . O 5 . . . . | $$ | . X O X O . . . . . . . . 2 1 . X . . | $$ | . O O X X . . . . . X . 3 4 . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X . . . . , . . . O O , X . . | $$ | . O X . . X . . . . X . . O X X . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:55 am

To be honest, I just put a stone there to indicate the general area so I could show my counting. But point taken.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:56 pm

Thanks for posting the game, Daniel. Thanks to all that gave a review, as well.

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