Have you still not got it?RobertJasiek wrote:In this context, I have not called a single game a tounament. (I did, however, play in subtournaments comprising one game.)
The Nihon Kiin 1989 Rules are about ONE game of Go only!
No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
-
Cassandra
- Lives in sente
- Posts: 1326
- Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:33 am
- Rank: German 1 Kyu
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 14 times
- Been thanked: 153 times
Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
The Nihon Kiin 1989 Rules are about ONE game of Go only!
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
-
Cassandra
- Lives in sente
- Posts: 1326
- Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:33 am
- Rank: German 1 Kyu
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 14 times
- Been thanked: 153 times
Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Western rule freaks ...RobertJasiek wrote:In this context, I have not called a single game a tounament. (I did, however, play in subtournaments comprising one game.)
Applicability to all positions is a necessity. Studying eccentric positions is a joy.
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
-
gennan
- Lives in gote
- Posts: 497
- Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:08 am
- Rank: EGF 3d
- GD Posts: 0
- Universal go server handle: gennan
- Location: Netherlands
- Has thanked: 273 times
- Been thanked: 147 times
Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
I use verbal rules in my own games and so do most other players, I suppose.
So the ambiguity of the definition of life and death in the official 1989 rules has never affected any of my games.
But it cannot be denied that verbal rules don't fully match the official rules.
These positions are indeed unrealistic. But that is besides the point.
I think it's good that such anomalies are pointed out and potential fixes in the offical rules are explored, even though it's unlikely to affect my games.
I don't believe that rules specialists aim to use their special knowledge to win tournament games with some obscure exploit of a rule anomaly.
@Cassandra
These topics are discussed in the "Go Rules" subforum, which is a natural place for rules enthousiasts to discuss these matters.
Why do you feel the need to repeatedly insult them here by calling them "rule freaks"?
So the ambiguity of the definition of life and death in the official 1989 rules has never affected any of my games.
But it cannot be denied that verbal rules don't fully match the official rules.
These positions are indeed unrealistic. But that is besides the point.
I think it's good that such anomalies are pointed out and potential fixes in the offical rules are explored, even though it's unlikely to affect my games.
I don't believe that rules specialists aim to use their special knowledge to win tournament games with some obscure exploit of a rule anomaly.
@Cassandra
These topics are discussed in the "Go Rules" subforum, which is a natural place for rules enthousiasts to discuss these matters.
Why do you feel the need to repeatedly insult them here by calling them "rule freaks"?
-
Pio2001
- Lives in gote
- Posts: 418
- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:13 pm
- Rank: kgs 5 kyu
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: Pio2001
- Has thanked: 9 times
- Been thanked: 83 times
Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Of course it hasgennan wrote:I use verbal rules in my own games and so do most other players, I suppose.
So the ambiguity of the definition of life and death in the official 1989 rules has never affected any of my games.
Here, the F6 black stone has no eye, is not in seki, and can obviously be captured. However it is alive. And it is very important, under japanese rules, that Black doesn't have to capture the two white stones in order to prove it, because he would loose one point.
-
Cassandra
- Lives in sente
- Posts: 1326
- Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:33 am
- Rank: German 1 Kyu
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 14 times
- Been thanked: 153 times
Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Do you really assume that discussions like that here, or the pretended "anomalies" found by some Western rule freaks, get an official hearing in East-Asia?gennan wrote:These positions are indeed unrealistic. ...
I think it's good that such anomalies are pointed out and potential fixes in the offical rules are explored, ...
These "anomalies" exist in an artificially created surrounding only.
You will never ever encounter these in the realm of real life for which the official rules were written. Why should anyone see a need for action?
Just because a few people in the West play plaintiff and judge in one person?
Have you ever heard of a rules dispute in professional Japanese Go since 1989?
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
-
RobertJasiek
- Judan
- Posts: 6272
- Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:54 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- Been thanked: 797 times
- Contact:
Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
There have been rules disputes in professional Japanese Go since 1989. In particular, a consequence is that alternate filling of dame has been used more. You need not cite anomalies to have relevant rules implications in EACH game.
-
Gérard TAILLE
- Gosei
- Posts: 1346
- Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:47 am
- Rank: 1d
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 21 times
- Been thanked: 57 times
at 
-
Cassandra
- Lives in sente
- Posts: 1326
- Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:33 am
- Rank: German 1 Kyu
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 14 times
- Been thanked: 153 times
Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Do you want to say that a rules "dispute" arose just because both players did not follow the binding ones?RobertJasiek wrote:There have been rules disputes in professional Japanese Go since 1989. In particular, a consequence is that alternate filling of dame has been used more. You need not cite anomalies to have relevant rules implications in EACH game.
Or one player was mindedly absent before saying "I pass"?
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
-
RobertJasiek
- Judan
- Posts: 6272
- Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:54 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- Been thanked: 797 times
- Contact:
Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Unfortunately, I have forgotten the details and would need to dig more deeply in my files than I have time ATM.
-
Cassandra
- Lives in sente
- Posts: 1326
- Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:33 am
- Rank: German 1 Kyu
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 14 times
- Been thanked: 153 times
Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
So let us assume that the supposed "dispute" could be resolved within the ruleset in force.RobertJasiek wrote:Unfortunately, I have forgotten the details and would need to dig more deeply in my files than I have time ATM.
Otherwise, there would have been a "Rev. 1", either for the rules, or for the commentaries. But there is none.
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
-
RobertJasiek
- Judan
- Posts: 6272
- Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:54 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- Been thanked: 797 times
- Contact:
Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Japanese rules tradition went from pre-1949 (or possibly earlier) "leave dame etc. unplayed by all means" via "fix" J1949 by J1989 to noticing what J1989 actually means so "play the dame to guarantee territory". A less dubious process would have been to maintain professional attitude: learn from one's mistake, admit that the J1989 dame definition was a conceptual mistake with originally unintended consequences and overcome the mistake.
-
Cassandra
- Lives in sente
- Posts: 1326
- Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:33 am
- Rank: German 1 Kyu
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 14 times
- Been thanked: 153 times
Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Sorry, no further discussion of disputes you suspect, as long as you are unable to bring along qualified details.
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
-
pgwq
- Dies with sente
- Posts: 119
- Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:23 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 21 times
- Been thanked: 22 times
Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
I don't want to make any excuses for the "Japanese go rules".Gérard TAILLE wrote:Thank you for the link Bill. It allows me to give you a more convincing position:
If white stones are dead then the black score is (17 * 17 * 2) + 5 = 583 points
Assuming now that 582 black stones have been captured, and assuming a komi 0.5, then the result is a black win by 0.5 points.
That means that black must avoid to capture at "a" because she will loose one point and the game (white will simply pass without trying to live)
Both players agree to stop the game and now the confirmation phase begin. The problem is now the following : nobody knows the god sequence saying if white stones are really dead under hypothetical play. The result of the game is simply unkonwn because the humans are not strong enough! BTW I doubt the current computers are able to give us the correct result.
Because it randomly modified the rules of the Tang and Song Dynasties,
Under Tang song rules, the number of moves of black and white sides should be equal, without "pass".
Let's look:
Black's moves: 582(prisoners) + 17*4(on board + "a") = 650
White's moves: 17*17=289
And, according to ancient Chinese Weiqi rules, basic liberties which make groups alive forever are not territory.
If one party can not put down stones on the board, 'pass' is prohibitted. 'overflow', then 'overflow of two parties'. See my articles.
overflow: hand over 1 stone to your opponent directly From above the board. It's like water overflowing from a bottle.
Special case: group/stone(s) which only 1 liberty will alive on the board.
If you killed these group/stone(s), you will lost more.
- gz5.png (114.87 KiB) Viewed 13962 times
In ancient Chinese philosophy, Alternating between Yin and Yang is called Tao. Chinese: 一阴一阳之谓道。
- Attachments
-
- tang_song.sgf
- (2.99 KiB) Downloaded 672 times
Last edited by pgwq on Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Zhang-hu 章浒
Committed to the restoration Chinese traditional Weiqi
Research on ancient Weiqi rules & Classic (Dunhuang Classic and the Thirteen Chapters Classic)
From Suzhou, Jiangsu Province, China
Committed to the restoration Chinese traditional Weiqi
Research on ancient Weiqi rules & Classic (Dunhuang Classic and the Thirteen Chapters Classic)
From Suzhou, Jiangsu Province, China
-
CDavis7M
- Lives in sente
- Posts: 716
- Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:18 pm
- Rank: Shokyu
- GD Posts: 0
- Universal go server handle: CDavis7M
- Has thanked: 109 times
- Been thanked: 140 times
- Contact:
Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Why are people pretending that the Japanese Rules do not clearly handle these situations? The Japanese Rules are simple. Stones are only "alive stones" if they cannot be captured or, even if they can be, new stones can be placed that cannot be captured. Stones are "dead stones" if they are not "alive stones." The Japanese Rules place the burden on showing life. There is no burden to show death -- it is the default status of stones. All stones are dead if they are not alive. The Japanese Rules define numerous basic shapes as being alive or dead, none of which cover the situations here. If a player cannot prove that stones are alive (this was the given assumption in the original post), then the stones are dead stones.
----------
If there were a situation where the stones were defined as dead, but the player thought they they could live if their opponent's play were not perfect, then the player can resume the game. If it is too late for them to play anywhere to make life then it is too late.
----------
Also, I don't believe that a data scientist (a real one) would not be able to implement a determination of life or death status under the Japanese Rules using AI self-play. If the position cannot be shown to be 100% alive according to AI self-play, then the shape is dead.
Well then clearly the black stones are dead stones according to the Japanese Rules. The Japanese Rules do not define the black shape as being a living shape and black cannot show in Life & Death confirmation that any new stones are stones that cannot be captured. Since Black cannot meet the burden of showing life, then the black stones are dead. Black can resume the game but that does not help Black here. There is no requirement for white to play to show that the black stones are dead.Gérard TAILLE wrote:What is the problem. Nobody knows if black can live in the upper left corner (after white makes the capture) and more over nobody knows if black can live under hypothetical play!
Maybe we can conclude to a no result by ignorance (and not due to a explicit loop) ?
Again, Black does not need to prove that the white stones are dead. The white stones are dead by definition.Gérard TAILLE wrote:If white stones are dead then the black score is (17 * 17 * 2) + 5 = 583 points
Assuming now that 582 black stones have been captured, and assuming a komi 0.5, then the result is a black win by 0.5 points.
That means that black must avoid to capture at "a" because she will loose one point and the game (white will simply pass without trying to live)
Both players agree to stop the game and now the confirmation phase begin. The problem is now the following : nobody knows the god sequence saying if white stones are really dead under hypothetical play. The result of the game is simply unknown because the humans are not strong enough! BTW I doubt the current computers are able to give us the correct result.
----------
If there were a situation where the stones were defined as dead, but the player thought they they could live if their opponent's play were not perfect, then the player can resume the game. If it is too late for them to play anywhere to make life then it is too late.
----------
Also, I don't believe that a data scientist (a real one) would not be able to implement a determination of life or death status under the Japanese Rules using AI self-play. If the position cannot be shown to be 100% alive according to AI self-play, then the shape is dead.