Japonese counting

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Gérard TAILLE
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Re: Japonese counting

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

kvasir wrote: In this case black is claiming that white's stones are dead because they can be captured in a ko but refuses to start the ko even though this does not reduce his territory (it is dame since it is not surrounded by a living group, black's group is dead).
How can you force black to play if black considers it is seki? It will be a suicide no?
kvasir wrote: Not many people are going to agree that this is "in spirit of good sense".
I completly agree with you.
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jann
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Re: Japonese counting

Post by jann »

In any case it seems easy to modify the earlier example to allow B ko abuse (like the other known anomalies). In a game phase with this huge difference in ko rules, no surprise if the outcome will not always match real go. Doubtful approach.
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Re: Japonese counting

Post by Cassandra »

Gérard TAILLE wrote:OC, if white decide to pass then, in confirmation phase, black will play:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | O X . X . O . |
$$ | 1 O X X X O O |
$$ | O . O X O 2 O |
$$ | O O O X X O . |
$$ | X X O O O O O |
$$ | . X X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]
All White stones are alive.
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Mike Novack
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Re: Japonese counting

Post by Mike Novack »

Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Mike Novack wrote:
kvasir wrote:I think it goes like this.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | O X . X O . O |
$$ | . O X X X O O |
$$ | O O O X O O O |
$$ | . O . O O X X |
$$ | O O O X X X . |
$$ | X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . . . . X . |
$$ -----------------[/go]
White: your stones are dead!
Black: yes, btw your stones are dead.
White: I request a resumption on grounds of J89 Article 9 Paragraph 3 !!!
Black: I must oblige!
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :b3: Pass :w4: Pass
$$ -----------------
$$ | O X . X O 1 O |
$$ | . O X X X O O |
$$ | O O O X O O O |
$$ | . O 2 O O X X |
$$ | O O O X X X . |
$$ | X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . . . . X . |
$$ -----------------[/go]
Black: Your stones are alive, dog gone it!
White: I told you so!
Black: Wait what?!
Correct, the white stones are alive and the black stones dead. Gerard, I think you need to look at "double ko". And remember, ko means cannot capture back for ONE turn. Black is dead here because this is not double ko for him (he cannot fill to end either ko because self atari)
Mike, you are right in normal play but it is not the case here.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play
$$ -----------------
$$ | O X . X O . O |
$$ | . O X X X O O |
$$ | O O O X O O O |
$$ | . O . O O X X |
$$ | O O O X X X . |
$$ | X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . . . . X . |
$$ -----------------[/go]
Assume :w1: pass, :b2: pass
If white request resumption of the game black is allowed to play first but here she will simply pass again and, to avoid losing a point white will also pass and the game stops.
Now the confirmation phase begins and if it follows:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Confirmation phase
$$ -----------------
$$ | O X . X O 1 O |
$$ | . O X X X O O |
$$ | O O O X O O O |
$$ | . O 2 O O X X |
$$ | O O O X X X . |
$$ | X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . . . . X . |
$$ -----------------[/go]
then because white has not passed for the ko :b1: it will follow
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Confirmation phase
$$ -----------------
$$ | O X . X . X O |
$$ | 3 O X X X O O |
$$ | O O O X O O O |
$$ | 5 O O O O X X |
$$ | O O O X X X . |
$$ | X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . . . . X . |
$$ -----------------[/go]
:w4: pass
and the white stones are all captured
BUT (a very big but) why do you imagine white would pass for 4? White 4 would capture in the top right ko putting the black stones a the top in atari and they cannot connect (connect and die)
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Re: Japonese counting

Post by kvasir »

Gérard TAILLE wrote:How can you force black to play if black considers it is seki? It will be a suicide no?
This is the major flaw of J89 in my mind: Neither player is required to do anything, they can disagree about every group and refuse to play more moves by passing when the game resumes and never agree to end the game. There is no recourse to an arbitrator or anything like that, and the process of "confirmation" is also not defined thought there are plenty of examples of how to apply the rules during confirmation.

Also, it wouldn't be seki. The black stones are just dead, but the white stones are plausibly dead in mutual-death. The life and death of the white and black stones are not connected in the confirmation like it is in seki. The white stones are dead because of a ko that black can neither connect nor capture, except in confirmation. There is also a question if the white stones are really dead during confirmation because white can live some of them and play a single stone in place of the captured ones.

It is really not the "good sense" required in the preamble and this kind of monster is obviously not intended in the J89 rules. It also seem that the dead black stones remain on the board and are not added to the territory as prisoners, what kind of dead group is that? I think mutual-death is a situation that we need to apply the "good sense" to. I view this the same way that in physics and analysis we can have removable singularities and continues extensions, and cover up the monsters. In this case it is only white that is dead by mutual-death, it is a phantom death because it can not happen during regular play and if we considered it dead this results in dead stones not being removed at the end of the game which we should disallow by axiom. It seems clear to me that it should be considered alive despite everything.
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Re: Japonese counting

Post by Cassandra »

I am very sure that the Nihon Kiin 1989 Rules were never ever written for a Western audience.
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Re: Japonese counting

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

Cassandra wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:OC, if white decide to pass then, in confirmation phase, black will play:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | O X . X . O . |
$$ | 1 O X X X O O |
$$ | O . O X O 2 O |
$$ | O O O X X O . |
$$ | X X O O O O O |
$$ | . X X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]
All White stones are alive.
Your right Cassandra. Your :w2: is better but you cannot say white stones are alive. As previoulsly only a part of white stones are alive.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | O X . X a O . |
$$ | 1 O X X X O O |
$$ | O 3 O X O 2 O |
$$ | O O O X X O . |
$$ | X X O O O O O |
$$ | . X X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]
The white marked stones are dead. BTW because point a is a dame all white stones are still in seki. I hoped to find an example without dame but it is not the case with this example.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | . X . X 4 O . |
$$ | X 5 X X X O O |
$$ | O X O X O 2 O |
$$ | O O O X X O . |
$$ | X X O O O O O |
$$ | . X X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | W B . B . O . |
$$ | . W B B B O O |
$$ | O a O B O . O |
$$ | O O O B B O . |
$$ | X X O O O O O |
$$ | . X X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]
As a conclusion the marked stones are dead. The point "a" is a dame and all white stones are in seki with the marked black stones.

It is interesting to not that if, before passing, black plays
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | O X . X . O . |
$$ | 1 O X X X O O |
$$ | O 2 O X O . O |
$$ | O O O X X O . |
$$ | X X O O O O O |
$$ | . X X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]
then now the black stones are dead and the white stones are alive. :o
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Gérard TAILLE
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Re: Japonese counting

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

Mike Novack wrote: BUT (a very big but) why do you imagine white would pass for 4? White 4 would capture in the top right ko putting the black stones a the top in atari and they cannot connect (connect and die)
Simply because we are in the confirmation phase and white has not passed for the two kos taken by black.
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Re: Japonese counting

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

Maybe I have found a position in which all black stones at the top and all white stones are dead in the confirmation phase:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | O X . X . O . |
$$ | . O X X X O O |
$$ | O . O O X X O |
$$ | O O O . O X O |
$$ | X X O O X X O |
$$ | . X X O O O . |
$$ | X . X X X O O |
$$ -----------------[/go]
Here again, if black, in normal play, plays the exchange:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | O X . X . O . |
$$ | 1 O X X X O O |
$$ | O 2 O O X X O |
$$ | O O O . O X O |
$$ | X X O O X X O |
$$ | . X X O O O . |
$$ | X . X X X O O |
$$ -----------------[/go]
then now the black stones at the top are dead while white stones are alive.
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Re: Japonese counting

Post by lightvector »

@Mike Novack - It sounds you might just not be aware of this: under J89 rules, the hypothetical play to confirm life&death uses an alternative ko rule in which you can only recapture a ko after you make a pass for it. Ko threats or intervening moves on the rest of the board are not supposed to matter, the only thing that lets you retake is a pass. The motivation behind the Japanese rules drafters including such a weird ko rule is because they wanted things like bent-four-in-the-corner to be dead in hypothetical play regardless of if there are unremovable ko threats elsewhere on the board. No longer do other ko threats matter with such a rule, so you get the desired result. But as you can see in the discussion in this thread, such a rule might lead to weird consequences the drafters did not foresee.
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Re: Japonese counting

Post by Cassandra »

Gérard TAILLE wrote:Your right Cassandra. Your :w2: is better but you cannot say white stones are alive. As previoulsly only a part of white stones are alive.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | W X . X a O . |
$$ | 1 W X X X O O |
$$ | O 3 O X O 2 O |
$$ | O O O X X O . |
$$ | X X O O O O O |
$$ | . X X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]
The white marked stones are dead. BTW because point a is a dame all white stones are still in seki. I hoped to find an example without dame but it is not the case with this example.
:w2: is a new stone that has come into being, and that cannot be captured by the opponent.

Therefore, both marked White stones in the upper left are alive!

Apparently, you are not aware that it is NOT mandatory to have the "new stone that has come into being" at any spot on the board where White stones have been taken off before. You may want to study life-and-death example 4.
And also apparently, you have missed that a status confirmation that starts with a BLACK move is ONLY about the status of a WHITE group. The seemingly result of the sequence that has been used during status confirmation "on the board" on other groups but the one under current inspection is irrelevant, as its starting position (= the position after the game stopped) will be recreated again after each status confirmation.
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Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
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Re: Japonese counting

Post by Cassandra »

Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | O X . X . O . |
$$ | . O X X X O O |
$$ | O . O O X X O |
$$ | O O O . O X O |
$$ | X X O O X X O |
$$ | . X X O O O . |
$$ | X . X X X O O |
$$ -----------------[/go]
Yes, the position in the upper right is seki.

However, ...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ -------------------
$$ | X O X . X O . .
$$ | X O X X X O . .
$$ | . O . X O O . .
$$ | O O X X O . . .
$$ | X X O O O O O O
$$ | . X X X X . . .
$$ | . . . . X . . .
$$ | . . . . X . . .[/go]
Do you really assume to see the position in the upper left corner at the start of a status confirmation?

You should try to find examples, which do NOT include "unfinished" positions.
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
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Re: Japonese counting

Post by RobertJasiek »

kvasir wrote:This is the major flaw of J89 in my mind: Neither player is required to do anything, they can disagree about every group and refuse to play more moves by passing when the game resumes and never agree to end the game.
The major J89 flaw is to presume, but completely ignore, strategy (the decision-making among alternating sequences) in hypothetical play in the rules text. The second-most important major J89 flaw is to presume alternating sequences in hypothetical play but hide them behind grammar of modal verbs in "cannot [be captured...] if [...] could not [capture]".
lightvector wrote:The motivation behind the Japanese rules drafters including such a weird ko rule is because they wanted things like bent-four-in-the-corner to be dead in hypothetical play
Presumably this was the intention but almost all ko shapes including bent-four-in-the-corner do not require a hypothetical ko rule - the basic ko rule would be sufficient. The known ko shapes with actually different behaviour are:

- position with double ko death and elsewhere a teire ko

- triple ko shape with one external ko

The J89 rules writers were only aware of the impact on the latter, which is less frequent than the former ko shape.
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Re: Japonese counting

Post by Cassandra »

Dear Robert,

As I have already mentioned, the Nihon Kiin 1989 Rules were never ever written for a Western audience that you are a member of.

-- You do not understand the language.
-- You do not have any feeling for the culture.
-- But you are using your very special Western value system to condemn something that was never intended to be applied by you.
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Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
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Re: Japonese counting

Post by jann »

Cassandra wrote: :w2: is a new stone that has come into being, and that cannot be captured by the opponent.

Therefore, both marked White stones in the upper left are alive!
By this logic almost anything is alive if defender plays a live stone somewhere else in his territory. The new stone must be a direct result of the capture, it must not be possible to play it otherwise.
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