Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

The proposed move is good locally, but not best. I've got to change it.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc B: 7 W: 11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Terr notes that this is a possible continuation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc B: 7 W: 11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O 7 . X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O W 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
...in which black makes the classic shape move to get out and dies in a crane's nest. However, because of black 1, this is not a true crane's nest. ( Beginners: look at http://senseis.xmp.net/?CranesNestTesuji )

Black can play 3 like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc B: 7 W: 11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O W 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]
...and then when white tries to kill with 4:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc B: 7 W: 11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 8 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O 5 . X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O W 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]
...white dies.

Note the difference that 1 makes. Not only does it guarantee that black's corner is alive, it compromises the safety of white's top group. It would really be nice to get there ourselves.

As I noted a few posts back, if we do go there, it is sente to kill the corner. ( Killing the corner is huge. We have two groups that are getting too big to lose, and if the corner dies, they are both alive. And the corner itself is worth something like 25-30 points )
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc B: 7 W: 11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Therefore they will have to defend, we can still come back to D12 if we want to. I'm not sure that D12 is indeed best even then, but I know that if we play D12, it is better to have a white stone at D18 than a black stone. So even if we do decide to play D12, D18 must come first.
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Chew Terr
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Chew Terr »

Joaz, don't forget to add the prisoner price. =)

I THINK I get why you did that...
I guess it's just there as a forcing move, before we get the move I wanted in the first place... but I'll look at it some more before my next turn, to consider how they could have punished my move in comparison.
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shapenaji
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by shapenaji »

Joaz's change is Approved
This is our opportunity to make this move, if we do not make it now, there's a very good chance we won't be able to get it later, black could combine attack and defense by making this move instead.

However, that being said, Terr's move hardly seems fatal, it appears at first glance as though we can make this move and still make joaz's move in the corner, as terr's move is sente against the 3 stones.

The problem is that we don't want to push black that way, we want to move our white stones on top out, if we push him, we cut ourselves off.

We want him to push us along the left side, so we don't need to stop him...
P.S.
Joaz, there's no need for a cranes nest when they haven't hopped out at 1, just take away a liberty. hane and the 3 stones are dead, although I still think Terr's move is incorrect for the reasons above
Tactics yes, Tact no...
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Violence »

Wha? I have no clue whatsoever why Joaz changed this move... both of these moves are sente, you can change their order and there's no difference... I really don't understand.
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fwiffo
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by fwiffo »

For lower ranked observers:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
If Joaz had kept Terr's move, this would have been white's follow-up, not the crane's nest. You might think automatically to play the crane's nest because it's a tesuji you've seen before. But :w2: here is almost always better when you've got an "incomplete" crane's nest. It reduces the liberties liberties of the black stones and therefore captures more firmly. This position is a good example why it's better. The shortage of liberties on the top white group means the crane's nest doesn't work.

In this case, because :w2: works, Terr's original move is sente, which is what shapenaji and Violence are talking about. White gets to play both this and Joaz's move, in whichever order. But maybe it's still worth changing because it's pushing black in the wrong direction (that's a question that's beyond my judgment).

Kageyama spends some time talking about this idea in Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go. He gives a couple examples of capturing firmly.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ . O . X . X O . O . |
$$ , . . . a W X O . . |
$$ . O . . b c X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Here, you could capture the marked white cutting stone in a ladder with a, but that lets white get a ladder breaker in, so that's obviously bad. You can net with b, but Kageyama recommends c. It captures too (if white extends, you can net), but it's firmer because it reduces the liberties of the white stone.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ . . . . O X W . . . |
$$ . . . . . X W . . . |
$$ . . . . . X b a . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Here you could net with a, which is normally good. But in this case, you can play b, which is better because it's firmer.

Choosing the "firmer" way of capturing often gets you a liberty ahead in capturing races or an advantage in many tactical situations, and also often reduces the number of forcing moves your opponent has against you and leaves behind fewer ko threats.

But here's an example where the crane's nest is correct:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X X . .
$$ | . . X W . . .
$$ | . . X W . . O
$$ | . . X W a . .
$$ | . O O X b . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
If black plays a, white can cut at b and atari his way out. So the crane's nest of b is the right way to capture those white stones.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Dusk Eagle »

I agree with everything you said fwiffo, except for the last diagram:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Not a crane's nest.
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X X . .
$$ | . . X W . . .
$$ | . . X W . 2 O
$$ | . . X W . . .
$$ | . O O X 1 . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by fwiffo »

Oops. Well, I'm sure they can imagine a correct example. :mrgreen:
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27a

Post by Gresil »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc B: 7 W: 11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . B X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Yon move be forc'd.
So you've got an eye?
That don't impress me much
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Chew Terr »

Can anyone who has a backup of this game suggest a good way for me to get a copy of it? The rapidshare only allows 10 downloads (and I'm at work so I can't see if that's used up). I would love to have a copy to go through once the game was over, and I may try to memorize it beforehand, since most of the mistakes I am making are being corrected. If email would work better, I would gladly give my address to someone willing to share it.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by topazg »

Approved
See previous analysis...
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Phelan »

Chew Terr wrote:Can anyone who has a backup of this game suggest a good way for me to get a copy of it? The rapidshare only allows 10 downloads (and I'm at work so I can't see if that's used up). I would love to have a copy to go through once the game was over, and I may try to memorize it beforehand, since most of the mistakes I am making are being corrected. If email would work better, I would gladly give my address to someone willing to share it.
Send me a pm with your address and I'll send it. It's 4 MB.
a1h1 [1d]: You just need to curse the gods and defend.
Good Go = Shape.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Dusk Eagle »

Alright, I didn't want to usurp Phelan's post on page one, but since there is some concern that the download limit will be used up, here is my copy of the Big Brother Malkovich thread from GoDiscussions.

However, since the maximum allowed file is not enough for a normal .zip format, you'll have to download a program called 7-zip from http://7-zip.org in order to unpack the archive. I have other formats that I could have uploaded (such as bzip2), but I think this one is easiest for the most amount of people.

Edit: Or go with what Phelan wrote as I was writing this :razz: . Whichever is easier for you.
Attachments
big_brother1_no_avatar.7z
Big Brother Malkovich #1
(97.16 KiB) Downloaded 1094 times
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
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No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Phelan »

I was going to suggest that you contact Dusk Eagle too, since his copies seem to be smaller. Apparently it wasn't needed. :)
a1h1 [1d]: You just need to curse the gods and defend.
Good Go = Shape.
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Chew Terr
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Chew Terr »

Thanks, gents. 7z is fine with me. =)
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Violence »

Approved.
All according to keikaku.

Note: Keikaku means plan.

Maybe I shouldn't use inside jokes in these threads...
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