Japonese counting

[kvasir]

This is the major flaw of J89 in my mind: Neither player is required to do anything, they can disagree about every group and refuse to play more moves by passing when the game resumes and never agree to end the game.

The major J89 flaw is to presume, but completely ignore, strategy (the decision-making among alternating sequences) in hypothetical play in the rules text. The second-most important major J89 flaw is to presume alternating sequences in hypothetical play but hide them behind grammar of modal verbs in "cannot [be captured...] if [...] could not [capture]".

I don't think "confirmation" is supposed to include competition in J89, it is not "play" it is one player demonstrating how a disputed group is dead. The players are somehow supposed to reach an agreement when they disagree.

I don't think I can agree that "strategy" during confirmation is the major flaw, the only strategy that I find is that players may assign different value to different results. I suppose it is related, player A and player B may agree to 1-0, player A and player C may agree to no-result and player B and player C just sit there trying to stare each other down forever

[Cassandra]

is a new stone that has come into being, and that cannot be captured by the opponent.

Therefore, both marked White stones in the upper left are alive!

By this logic almost anything is alive if defender plays a live stone somewhere else in his territory. The new stone must be a direct result of the capture, it must not be possible to play it otherwise.

Please refer to life-and-death example 4.

Then you will probably understand.
There, the new stone that makes White's group alive is played at a board point, where no White stone has been captured before.

As a matter of course, it would have been advisable to describe the area in which such new stone could be played in the text of the rules. But apparently, the authors of the rules did not have such artifically created positions in mind, which sole purpose in life is to track down alleged formulation deficiencies.

[jann]

Please refer to life-and-death example 4.
Then you will probably understand.
There, the new stone that makes White's group alive is played at a board point, where no White stone has been captured before.

The location of the new stone (and whether a stone was captured from there) doesn't matter, only the logical connection: the new stone was not possible before, but the capture made it possible. In example 4 W cannot play live stones by his own will.

[RobertJasiek]

kvasir, during ordinary play, players may make mistakes when using strategy. In analysis play, hypothetical strategy must be applied without mistakes; there is no competition.

Cassandra, originally J89 were written by professional players for themselves and therefore not for Japanese amateurs, foreign amateurs or me. Japanese professional players have spread, or contributed to spreading, go in many countries of the world using Japanese style rules. In particular, they did so before I wrote down verbal Japanese rules. Therefore, Japanese style rules have been spread to various countries regardless of their originally limited intended scope of application. In particular, J89 were used in most EGF tournaments from, IIRC, 1997 to 2007. In particular, I did play in such tournaments.

Simply speaking, I do not understand Japanese. In old times, people did not understand Hebrew, Greek or Latin and nevertheless applied the Bible. That is why translations exist: enable understanding and interpretation of contents despite not understanding the original language. Do you suggest that nobody except those understanding Hebrew may ever apply the contents of the Bible and nobody except those understanding Japanese may ever interpret the rules?! Your contribution to translation is welcome but you do not possess the exclusive right to interpretation.

Do not make wrong assumptions about my understanding of Japanese culture! In particular, it is much richer than you imply. E.g., it contains both a preference for exactness and, by others, a preference for ambiguity.

You suggest that my Western value system would be very special. This system includes exactness, truth and logic. Values belonging to the basics of maths, science etc. and widely applied at school, university and jurisdiction. Contrary to being very special. Even applied by Japanese professional players in play and teaching whenever their knowledge and ability allows.

Do I condemn J89? Yes. More importantly, I criticise them and suggest corrections. Do you praise them and suggest to keep them exactly as they are?

[Gérard TAILLE]

Your right Cassandra. Your is better but you cannot say white stones are alive. As previoulsly only a part of white stones are alive.

$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | W X . X a O . |
$$ | 1 W X X X O O |
$$ | O 3 O X O 2 O |
$$ | O O O X X O . |
$$ | X X O O O O O |
$$ | . X X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | W X . X a O . |
$$ | 1 W X X X O O |
$$ | O 3 O X O 2 O |
$$ | O O O X X O . |
$$ | X X O O O O O |
$$ | . X X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]

The white marked stones are dead. BTW because point a is a dame all white stones are still in seki. I hoped to find an example without dame but it is not the case with this example.

is a new stone that has come into being, and that cannot be captured by the opponent.

Therefore, both marked White stones in the upper left are alive!

Apparently, you are not aware that it is NOT mandatory to have the "new stone that has come into being" at any spot on the board where White stones have been taken off before. You may want to study life-and-death example 4.
And also apparently, you have missed that a status confirmation that starts with a BLACK move is ONLY about the status of a WHITE group. The seemingly result of the sequence that has been used during status confirmation "on the board" on other groups but the one under current inspection is irrelevant, as its starting position (= the position after the game stopped) will be recreated again after each status confirmation.

I confess easily that I have difficulties to inderstand the following wording of the rule (and I guess I am not alone with this difficulty):
"if capturing them would enable a new stone to be played that the opponent could not capture"
but, with this discussion, I think I make progress though slowly.

You say is a new stone that has come into being, and that cannot be captured by the opponent. Surely cannot be capture but in any case , through confirmation play (and also through normal play!), black cannot prevent white to occupy definitly this point. As a consequence, it seems to me it is not the capture itself of the marked stones which allows white to play . How can you conclude white marked stones are alive?

[Gérard TAILLE]

$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | O X . X . O . |
$$ | . O X X X O O |
$$ | O . O O X X O |
$$ | O O O . O X O |
$$ | X X O O X X O |
$$ | . X X O O O . |
$$ | X . X X X O O |
$$ -----------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | O X . X . O . |
$$ | . O X X X O O |
$$ | O . O O X X O |
$$ | O O O . O X O |
$$ | X X O O X X O |
$$ | . X X O O O . |
$$ | X . X X X O O |
$$ -----------------[/go]

Yes, the position in the upper right is seki.

However, ...

$$
$$ -------------------
$$ | X O X . X O . .
$$ | X O X X X O . .
$$ | . O . X O O . .
$$ | O O X X O . . .
$$ | X X O O O O O O
$$ | . X X X X . . .
$$ | . . . . X . . .
$$ | . . . . X . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$ -------------------
$$ | X O X . X O . .
$$ | X O X X X O . .
$$ | . O . X O O . .
$$ | O O X X O . . .
$$ | X X O O O O O O
$$ | . X X X X . . .
$$ | . . . . X . . .
$$ | . . . . X . . .[/go]

Do you really assume to see the position in the upper left corner at the start of a status confirmation?

You should try to find examples, which do NOT include "unfinished" positions.

What do you mean Cassandra, my position above is "finished" isn'it ?

[Cassandra]

What do you mean Cassandra, my position above is "finished" isn'it ?

$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | O X 1 X . O . |
$$ | . O X X X O O |
$$ | O . O O X X O |
$$ | O O O . O X O |
$$ | X X O O X X O |
$$ | . X X O O O . |
$$ | X . X X X O O |
$$ -----------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | O X 1 X . O . |
$$ | . O X X X O O |
$$ | O . O O X X O |
$$ | O O O . O X O |
$$ | X X O O X X O |
$$ | . X X O O O . |
$$ | X . X X X O O |
$$ -----------------[/go]

No, it isn't.

$$W
$$ -------------------
$$ | X O X . X O . .
$$ | X O X X X O . .
$$ | 1 O . X O O . .
$$ | O O X X O . . .
$$ | X X O O O O O O
$$ | . X X X X . . .
$$ | . . . . X . . .
$$ | . . . . X . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ -------------------
$$ | X O X . X O . .
$$ | X O X X X O . .
$$ | 1 O . X O O . .
$$ | O O X X O . . .
$$ | X X O O O O O O
$$ | . X X X X . . .
$$ | . . . . X . . .
$$ | . . . . X . . .[/go]

As well as this.

You are trying to create examples on the basis of a rule, from which is already known that it does not fulfill its intended purpose, not even within J89.

[kvasir]

kvasir, during ordinary play, players may make mistakes when using strategy. In analysis play, hypothetical strategy must be applied without mistakes; there is no competition.

I think I agree with this statement, if I understand it.

I would use different words, I'd talk about strategy during ordinary play, but during confirmation/analysis play I would use words like "deduction", "reasoning" or "arguments" instead of "hypothetical strategy". This is because I don't think it is "strategy" if everyone is supposed to reach the same conclusion.

I may also be misunderstanding something that was said.

I think I am about to stop following this thread, it is really all over the place in terms of the topic now.

[RobertJasiek]

Hypothetical strategy is part of deduction. Posing analysis questions, such as "Is this string alive?", is another part of deduction. Therefore, the word deduction does not substitute the term hypothetical strategy.

Ko rules etc. aside, I have chosen the term hypothetical strategy well because it is almost the same as strategy. Strategy applies to a position before successive passes while hypothetical strategy applies to a position created by successive passes.

I have defined hypothetical strategy in my Japanese 2003 Rules and my Ko research paper. Deriving the definition of strategy as a formal concept is trivial. Note that I have not been the first to define strategy; other game theorists did it earlier in different notation but with essentially the same contents. Needless to say, informal use of the word strategy differs and often refers to higher level strategic concepts while the formal term refers to the low level of decision-making like that of tactical reading.

[Gérard TAILLE]

What do you mean Cassandra, my position above is "finished" isn'it ?

$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | O X 1 X . O . |
$$ | . O X X X O O |
$$ | O . O O X X O |
$$ | O O O . O X O |
$$ | X X O O X X O |
$$ | . X X O O O . |
$$ | X . X X X O O |
$$ -----------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | O X 1 X . O . |
$$ | . O X X X O O |
$$ | O . O O X X O |
$$ | O O O . O X O |
$$ | X X O O X X O |
$$ | . X X O O O . |
$$ | X . X X X O O |
$$ -----------------[/go]

No, it isn't.

$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | O B . B . O . |
$$ | . O B B B O O |
$$ | O . O O B B O |
$$ | O O O . O B O |
$$ | X X O O B B O |
$$ | . X X O O O . |
$$ | X . X X X O O |
$$ -----------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | O B . B . O . |
$$ | . O B B B O O |
$$ | O . O O B B O |
$$ | O O O . O B O |
$$ | X X O O B B O |
$$ | . X X O O O . |
$$ | X . X X X O O |
$$ -----------------[/go]

What is your reasonning to conclude this game is not finished?

My reasonning is the following:
By normal play, the black stones are dead, even if black plays first as shown in the following diagram:

$$B normal play hypothesis
$$ -----------------
$$ | O B . B . O . |
$$ | 1 O B B B O O |
$$ | O 2 O O B B O |
$$ | O O O . O B O |
$$ | X X O O B B O |
$$ | . X X O O O . |
$$ | X . X X X O O |
$$ -----------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B normal play hypothesis
$$ -----------------
$$ | O B . B . O . |
$$ | 1 O B B B O O |
$$ | O 2 O O B B O |
$$ | O O O . O B O |
$$ | X X O O B B O |
$$ | . X X O O O . |
$$ | X . X X X O O |
$$ -----------------[/go]

As a consequence, as white, I would like to stop the game without adding a play (I mean without losing a point).
Here is my point: before really passing, I calculate what would happen in the confirmation phase and I discover it is a seki according to the rule.
With this analysis OC I do not pass and add a move.

Yes the game is not finished but in order to discover the game is not finished you have to analyse the position by assuming two passes. That is exactly what I suggested : analysing the above position assuming the game is stopped and read the consequences.

BTW the best move to add for white is this one

$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | O X . X . O . |
$$ | 1 O X X X O O |
$$ | O . O O X X O |
$$ | O O O . O X O |
$$ | X X O O X X O |
$$ | . X X O O O . |
$$ | X . X X X O O |
$$ -----------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | O X . X . O . |
$$ | 1 O X X X O O |
$$ | O . O O X X O |
$$ | O O O . O X O |
$$ | X X O O X X O |
$$ | . X X O O O . |
$$ | X . X X X O O |
$$ -----------------[/go]

That way black cannot make any ko threat : even if black plays several moves white can always pass.

[kvasir]

Ok, Robert, I get it. We do disagree about what is the major flaw of J89.

When I said:

"This is the major flaw of J89 in my mind: Neither player is required to do anything, they can disagree about every group and refuse to play more moves by passing when the game resumes and never agree to end the game."

It could also be taken as criticism of your J03, which was not intended because I think there is a difference between what is needed for basic rules and what is needed for complete rules for a game as adopted by an organization like NHK. It is also important in this regard that J89 has many unexpected results that players will refuse to accept and referees and appeals commissions are likely to side with the player that contradicts the rules in some such cases.

In the end it is unclear if J89 are the actual rules of play anywhere, which is a major flaw that I attribute largely to the presentation and omissions in the J89 text.

[Cassandra]

BTW the best move to add for white is this one

$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | O X . X . O . |
$$ | 1 O X X X O O |
$$ | O . O O X X O |
$$ | O O O . O X O |
$$ | X X O O X X O |
$$ | . X X O O O . |
$$ | X . X X X O O |
$$ -----------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | O X . X . O . |
$$ | 1 O X X X O O |
$$ | O . O O X X O |
$$ | O O O . O X O |
$$ | X X O O X X O |
$$ | . X X O O O . |
$$ | X . X X X O O |
$$ -----------------[/go]

That way black cannot make any ko threat : even if black plays several moves white can always pass.

Even you added a move, but still claim that the position was NOT unfinished?

In principle, you are looking for extensions of life-and-death example 9, which examines an unfinished position, too.
=> Let's assume that White must not recapture any ko, and see whether White will die or not.
=> If White dies, she will have to add a move to avoid seki.

Try taking White's seven stones at the left in life-and-death example 16 off the board, and you will realise that Article 7, 2. does not even work inside J89 as intended.

[Gérard TAILLE]

BTW the best move to add for white is this one

$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | O X . X . O . |
$$ | 1 O X X X O O |
$$ | O . O O X X O |
$$ | O O O . O X O |
$$ | X X O O X X O |
$$ | . X X O O O . |
$$ | X . X X X O O |
$$ -----------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | O X . X . O . |
$$ | 1 O X X X O O |
$$ | O . O O X X O |
$$ | O O O . O X O |
$$ | X X O O X X O |
$$ | . X X O O O . |
$$ | X . X X X O O |
$$ -----------------[/go]

That way black cannot make any ko threat : even if black plays several moves white can always pass.

Even you added a move, but still claim that the position was NOT unfinished?

You did not take my point Cassandra.
I wrote:
"Here is my point: before really passing, I calculate what would happen in the confirmation phase and I discover it is a seki according to the rule."

$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | O X . X . O . |
$$ | . O X X X O O |
$$ | O . O O X X O |
$$ | O O O . O X O |
$$ | X X O O X X O |
$$ | . X X O O O . |
$$ | X . X X X O O |
$$ -----------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | O X . X . O . |
$$ | . O X X X O O |
$$ | O . O O X X O |
$$ | O O O . O X O |
$$ | X X O O X X O |
$$ | . X X O O O . |
$$ | X . X X X O O |
$$ -----------------[/go]

What does that mean? I never claimed the game is finished (BTW I guess "stopped" would be a better wording). I only calculated, by using confirmation phase, what would be the result IF I decided to finish (stop) the game. Seing a seki according to the rule then I continue the game and I add a move to avoid it.
Yes I had to run (in my head) the confirmation phase from the position above but that does not mean that I finished the game. On contrary, after my analysis I decide to add a move.
At the time the position above really appear I do not know if I will stop the game or not and the answer will be given by the analysis of the position by the confirmation phase (in my head because the game is not yet stopped).
That way you see how it is relevant to be sure of the result of the confirmation phase in the position above.

In principle, you are looking for extensions of life-and-death example 9, which examines an unfinished position, too.
=> Let's assume that White must not recapture any ko, and see whether White will die or not.
=> If White dies, she will have to add a move to avoid seki.

Try taking White's seven stones at the left in life-and-death example 16 off the board, and you will realise that Article 7, 2. does not even work inside J89 as intended.

What is is your point? OC, in normal play the seven white stones cannot be capture due to a triple ko but as sson as both players pass then white stones are dead through confirmation phase. The only way for white to avoid losing her stones is to continue the game for ever by using an infinite number of resumption. Eventually I hope the referee will stop these resumptions and all white stones will be declared dead. Am I wrong?

[Cassandra]

What is is your point? OC, in normal play the seven white stones cannot be capture due to a triple ko but as sson as both players pass then white stones are dead through confirmation phase. The only way for white to avoid losing her stones is to continue the game for ever by using an infinite number of resumption. Eventually I hope the referee will stop these resumptions and all white stones will be declared dead. Am I wrong?

Seems so

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . O O . Q . Q X . X O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | O X X Q Q Q Q X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X Q X O . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . O O . Q . Q X . X O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | O X X Q Q Q Q X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X Q X O . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

What is the status of White's group?

+ + + + + + + + + + + + +

$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | 1 O O . O . O X 2 X O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X O 3 O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | 1 O O . O . O X 2 X O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X O 3 O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X O O . O . O X O b O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X a X O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X O O . O . O X O b O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X a X O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

pass for a
pass for b

$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X O O . O . O X O 7 O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X 6 X O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X O O . O . O X O 7 O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X 6 X O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X O O . O . O X a X O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X O b O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X O O . O . O X a X O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X O b O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

pass for a
pass for b

... ad infinitum ...

+ + + + + + + + + +

Variation:

$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X O O 5 O . O X O ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X . X O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X O O 5 O . O X O ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X . X O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

The shadowed point is taboo for Black.

$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X . 6 X O . O X O ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X . X O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X . 6 X O . O X O ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X . X O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

$$Bm7
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X 1 O 3 O . O X O ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X 2 X O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X 4 X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bm7
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X 1 O 3 O . O X O ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X 2 X O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X 4 X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

+ + + + + + + + + + + +

Conclusion:

$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . O O . Q . Q X . X O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | O X X Q Q Q Q X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X Q X O . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . O O . Q . Q X . X O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | O X X Q Q Q Q X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X Q X O . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

is alive.

It should be evident that life-and-death examples 17 and 18 are mistaken for the same reason.
It is impossible to capture anything attached to a double-ko that has MORE THAN THREE liberties.

[Gérard TAILLE]

$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . O O . Q . Q X . X O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | O X X Q Q Q Q X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X Q X O . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . O O . Q . Q X . X O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | O X X Q Q Q Q X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X Q X O . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

What is the status of White's group?

+ + + + + + + + + + + + +

$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | 1 O O . O . O X 2 X O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X O 3 O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | 1 O O . O . O X 2 X O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X O 3 O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X O O . O . O X O b O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X a X O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X O O . O . O X O b O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X a X O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

pass for a
pass for b

$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X O O . O . O X O 7 O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X 6 X O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X O O . O . O X O 7 O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X 6 X O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X O O . O . O X a X O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X O b O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X O O . O . O X a X O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X O b O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

pass for a
pass for b

... ad infinitum ...

+ + + + + + + + + +

Variation:

$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X O O 5 O . O X O ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X . X O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X O O 5 O . O X O ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X . X O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

The shadowed point is taboo for Black.

$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X . 6 X O . O X O ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X . X O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X . 6 X O . O X O ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X . X O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

$$Bm7
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X 1 O 3 O . O X O ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X 2 X O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X 4 X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bm7
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X 1 O 3 O . O X O ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X 2 X O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X 4 X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

+ + + + + + + + + + + +

Conclusion:

$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . O O . Q . Q X . X O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | O X X Q Q Q Q X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X Q X O . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . O O . Q . Q X . X O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | O X X Q Q Q Q X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X Q X O . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

is alive.

It should be evident that life-and-death examples 17 and 18 are mistaken for the same reason.
It is impossible to capture anything attached to a double-ko that has MORE THAN THREE liberties.

Oops I am very surprised to see you act as these western players who do not really understand what is behind the written rule.
You simply exploit what is strickly written even if the result looks stupid.

Let's take the following position:

$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | . X . X O X . |
$$ | X X X O O X X |
$$ | O X O O X X . |
$$ | . O . O O X . |
$$ | O O O O O X . |
$$ | X X X X X X . |
$$ | . X . . . . Q |
$$ -----------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | . X . X O X . |
$$ | X X X O O X X |
$$ | O X O O X X . |
$$ | . O . O O X . |
$$ | O O O O O X . |
$$ | X X X X X X . |
$$ | . X . . . . Q |
$$ -----------------[/go]

what is the status of ?
According to the loop you highlited in your last post is a living stone. Do you really believe a japonese referee will declare this stone alive?
There are a lot of flaws in the rule. Here the way to handle a loop in the confirmation phase is simply not defined and common sense must apply.

$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | O X . X . O . |
$$ | . O X X X O O |
$$ | O . O O X X O |
$$ | O O O . O X O |
$$ | X X O O X X O |
$$ | . X X O O O . |
$$ | X . X X X O O |
$$ -----------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | O X . X . O . |
$$ | . O X X X O O |
$$ | O . O O X X O |
$$ | O O O . O X O |
$$ | X X O O X X O |
$$ | . X X O O O . |
$$ | X . X X X O O |
$$ -----------------[/go]

BTW I am also surprised to see you conclude here it is a seki while the common sense tells us black is dead! Remember that, in normal play, black is dead even if she plays first.