Japonese counting

Cassandra · Post by **Cassandra** » Sun Aug 15, 2021 8:37 am

Gérard TAILLE wrote:
$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | O X . X . O . |
$$ | . O X X X O O |
$$ | O . O O X X O |
$$ | O O O . O X O |
$$ | X X O O X X O |
$$ | . X X O O O . |
$$ | X . X X X O O |
$$ -----------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | O X . X . O . | $$ | . O X X X O O | $$ | O . O O X X O | $$ | O O O . O X O | $$ | X X O O X X O | $$ | . X X O O O . | $$ | X . X X X O O | $$ -----------------[/go]
BTW, by using only your own understanding of japonese rule (I mean not the J89 as it is strictly written ) do you think white should add a move in the position above?

No, because Black cannot capture anything locally.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | O X . X . O . | $$ | 1 O X X X O O | $$ | O . O O X X O | $$ | O O O . O X O | $$ | X X O O X X O | $$ | . X X O O O . | $$ | X . X X X O O | $$ -----------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | 3 X . X 4 O . | $$ | X O X X X O O | $$ | O 2 O O X X O | $$ | O O O . O X O | $$ | X X O O X X O | $$ | . X X O O O . | $$ | X . X X X O O | $$ -----------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | X X 6 X O O . | $$ | X O X X X O O | $$ | O O O O X X O | $$ | O O O 5 O X O | $$ | X X O O X X O | $$ | . X X O O O . | $$ | X . X X X O O | $$ -----------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | . 7 O X O O . | $$ | . O X X X O O | $$ | O O O O X X O | $$ | O O O X 8 X O | $$ | X X O O X X O | $$ | . X X O O O . | $$ | X . X X X O O | $$ -----------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm9 $$ ----------------- $$ | 4 X 2 X O O . | $$ | . O X X X O O | $$ | O O O O X X O | $$ | O O O . O X O | $$ | X X O O X X O | $$ | . X X O O O . | $$ | X . X X X O O | $$ -----------------[/go]

pass

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | W . O . O O . | $$ | . O . . . O O | $$ | O O O O . . O | $$ | O O O . O . O | $$ | X X O O . . O | $$ | . X X O O O . | $$ | X . X X X O O | $$ -----------------[/go]

had been captured in the very beginning, but was reborn.

+ + + + +

Variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | 4 X . X . O . | $$ | X O X X X O O | $$ | O O O O X X O | $$ | O O O 3 O X O | $$ | X X O O X X O | $$ | . X X O O O . | $$ | X . X X X O O | $$ -----------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | O X 5 X 6 O . | $$ | 7 O X X X O O | $$ | O O O O X X O | $$ | O O O X 8 X O | $$ | X X O O X X O | $$ | . X X O O O . | $$ | X . X X X O O | $$ -----------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm9 $$ ----------------- $$ | 2 X X X O O . | $$ | X O X X X O O | $$ | O O O O X X O | $$ | O O O . O X O | $$ | X X O O X X O | $$ | . X X O O O . | $$ | X . X X X O O | $$ -----------------[/go]

pass

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | W . O . O O . | $$ | . O . . . O O | $$ | O O O O . . O | $$ | O O O . O . O | $$ | X X O O . . O | $$ | . X X O O O . | $$ | X . X X X O O | $$ -----------------[/go]

had been captured in the very beginning, but was reborn.

+ + + + +

Variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | O X 6 X . O . | $$ | . O X X X O O | $$ | O O O O X X O | $$ | O O O X . X O | $$ | X X O O X X O | $$ | . X X O O O . | $$ | X . X X X O O | $$ -----------------[/go]

pass

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | O 8 O X . O . | $$ | . O X X X O O | $$ | O O O O X X O | $$ | O O O X . X O | $$ | X X O O X X O | $$ | . X X O O O . | $$ | X . X X X O O | $$ -----------------[/go]

pass

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | W O O X . O . | $$ | . O X X X O O | $$ | O O O O X X O | $$ | O O O X . X O | $$ | X X O O X X O | $$ | . X X O O O . | $$ | X . X X X O O | $$ -----------------[/go]

had been captured in the very beginning, but was reborn.

RobertJasiek · Post by **RobertJasiek** » Sun Aug 15, 2021 9:43 am

Post it and your analysis regardless of whether I have time!

Gérard TAILLE · Post by **Gérard TAILLE** » Sun Aug 15, 2021 10:55 am

RobertJasiek wrote:Post it and your analysis regardless of whether I have time!

OK Robert here it is:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | O . X . X . O | $$ | O . X X X O O | $$ | O O X O O O O | $$ | X O X O O O O | $$ | X O X O O . O | $$ | X O X O X X O | $$ | . O X O X X O | $$ -----------------[/go]

First of all you can verify that in "normal play" the game is finished. Neither Black nor white want to add a single move.
If I analyse this position with J89 rule it appears that all strings of stones are alive and I am happy with this. I expected this result which seems the result for all (?) sekis without ko.

What about J2003? Here the things are different due to local-2 context.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | O . X . X . O | $$ | O . X X X O O | $$ | O O X O O O O | $$ | B O X O O O O | $$ | B O X O O . O | $$ | B O X O B B O | $$ | . O X O B B O | $$ -----------------[/go]

All groups are uncapturable except OC the two small marked black groups.
Now is the point : the big black group being uncapturable, when considering the status of any of the small black groups, then the big black group acts as a barrier for local-2 consideration.
As a consequence it looks that the small black group on the right is alive (capturable-1) while the left one is dead.

I can help you to prove that but firstly do you agree to say (if is true OC!) that this status of the left black stones (dead stones) is not what we would expect?

RobertJasiek · Post by **RobertJasiek** » Sun Aug 15, 2021 12:02 pm

Quickly reading status in my head, I think the left black string is J2003-alive but there are many variations and I am unsure so far.

Gérard TAILLE · Post by **Gérard TAILLE** » Sun Aug 15, 2021 12:23 pm

RobertJasiek wrote:Quickly reading status in my head, I think the left black string is J2003-alive but there are many variations and I am unsure so far.

Yes Robert there are many variations and for that reason I told you it is a beast. It is not obvious but I am quite sure left black string is really dead in J2003. If you do not want to find the variation by yourself I will help you.
BTW did you manage to prove that neither white nor black want to play a move in normal play? (=> the game stops in that position)

Gérard TAILLE · Post by **Gérard TAILLE** » Sun Aug 15, 2021 12:39 pm

Cassandra wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | O X . X . O . |
$$ | . O X X X O O |
$$ | O . O O X X O |
$$ | O O O . O X O |
$$ | X X O O X X O |
$$ | . X X O O O . |
$$ | X . X X X O O |
$$ -----------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | O X . X . O . | $$ | . O X X X O O | $$ | O . O O X X O | $$ | O O O . O X O | $$ | X X O O X X O | $$ | . X X O O O . | $$ | X . X X X O O | $$ -----------------[/go]
BTW, by using only your own understanding of japonese rule (I mean not the J89 as it is strictly written ) do you think white should add a move in the position above?
No, because Black cannot capture anything locally.

Good news Cassandra now I agree entirely with you

In the post viewtopic.php?p=266502#p266502 you claimed it was a seki and you claimed the game was unfinished. That was a surprise for me because it looks against my logic of go. Maybe I was wrong but now I understand we have the same logic.

Cassandra wrote:
$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | 4 X . X . O . |
$$ | X O X X X O O |
$$ | O O O O X X O |
$$ | O O O 3 O X O |
$$ | X X O O X X O |
$$ | . X X O O O . |
$$ | X . X X X O O |
$$ -----------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | 4 X . X . O . | $$ | X O X X X O O | $$ | O O O O X X O | $$ | O O O 3 O X O | $$ | X X O O X X O | $$ | . X X O O O . | $$ | X . X X X O O | $$ -----------------[/go]

This is the key diagram.
In J89 confirmation phase the move

is prohibited but is not quite logic is it?

Cassandra · Post by **Cassandra** » Sun Aug 15, 2021 12:52 pm

Gérard TAILLE wrote:In the post viewtopic.php?p=266502#p266502 you claimed it was a seki and you claimed the game was unfinished. That was a surprise for me because it looks against my logic of go. Maybe I was wrong but now I understand we have the same logic.

That time we were talking about J89, not about our understanding of what logically closed, contradiction-free rules might be.

In J89, your example is a seki, so White would have had to add a move during "play" to avoid this result of "status confirmation". Thus, the position is unfinished under J89.

As Robert already mentioned, the pass-for-a-specific-ko rule is not really necessary even in J89 -- in most cases.
However, when utilising J89, it is urgently needed to achieve several of the intended results of the examples.
Apparently together with some additional, but hidden, rules, like "recapturing in a double-ko is forbidden".

Cassandra · Post by **Cassandra** » Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:00 pm

Gérard TAILLE wrote:It is not obvious but I am quite sure left black string is really dead in J2003. If you do not want to find the variation by yourself I will help you.

Independent of what the result of a J2003 status assessment might be:

As I already mentioned earlier, a valid border of "local" needs the property "two-eyed".

The condition "uncapturable OR capturable-1" alone is NOT sufficient, as these properties can be also obtained by groups that are part of a seki.
But a seki is a compound of interconnected groups that must not be seperated logically.

Gérard TAILLE · Post by **Gérard TAILLE** » Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:04 pm

Cassandra wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:It is not obvious but I am quite sure left black string is really dead in J2003. If you do not want to find the variation by yourself I will help you.
Independent of what the result of a J2003 status assessment might be:

As I already mentioned earlier, a valid border of "local" needs the property "two-eyed".

"Uncapturable OR capturable-1" is NOT sufficient, as these properties can be also obtained by groups that are part of a seki.
But a seki is a compound of interconnected groups that must not be seperated logically.

Yes Cassandra that is exactly my point and I agree with you. In my example local-2 definition is too restrictive.

Gérard TAILLE · Post by **Gérard TAILLE** » Sun Aug 15, 2021 2:17 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | O X . X . O . | $$ | . O X X X O O | $$ | O . O O X X O | $$ | O O O . O X O | $$ | X X O O X X O | $$ | . X X O O O . | $$ | X . X X X O O | $$ -----------------[/go]

BTW, though the global ko-pass defined in J2003 is also a big progress, it is a pity to see that the status of white stones is still dead stones (=> seki => white should add a move)

Cassandra · Post by **Cassandra** » Sun Aug 15, 2021 2:20 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------- $$ | O . X . X . O | $$ | O . X X X O O | $$ | O O X O O O O | $$ | X O X O O O O | $$ | X O X O O 1 O | $$ | X O X O X X O | $$ | . O X O X X O | $$ -----------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------- $$ | O . X . X 5 O | $$ | O 3 X X X O O | $$ | O O X O O O O | $$ | X O X O O O O | $$ | X O X O O O O | $$ | X O X O 2 4 O | $$ | . O X O 7 6 O | $$ -----------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm8 $$ ----------------- $$ | O . X . X O O | $$ | O O X X X O O | $$ | O O X O O O O | $$ | X O X O O O O | $$ | X O X O O O O | $$ | X O X O . 1 O | $$ | 2 O X O O . O | $$ -----------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm8 $$ ----------------- $$ | O . X . X O O | $$ | O O X X X O O | $$ | O O X O O O O | $$ | . O X O O O O | $$ | 4 O X O O O O | $$ | . O X O 3 X O | $$ | O O X O O 5 O | $$ -----------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | O . X . X . O | $$ | O . X X X O O | $$ | O O X O O O O | $$ | Z O X O O O O | $$ | Z O X O O . O | $$ | Z O X O B B O | $$ | . O X O B B O | $$ -----------------[/go]

had been captured, but was reborn

had been captured, and disappeared forever

? ? ?

Gérard TAILLE · Post by **Gérard TAILLE** » Sun Aug 15, 2021 2:38 pm

Cassandra wrote:
$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | O . X . X . O |
$$ | O . X X X O O |
$$ | O O X O O O O |
$$ | X O X O O O O |
$$ | X O X O O 1 O |
$$ | X O X O X X O |
$$ | . O X O X X O |
$$ -----------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ ----------------- $$ | O . X . X . O | $$ | O . X X X O O | $$ | O O X O O O O | $$ | X O X O O O O | $$ | X O X O O 1 O | $$ | X O X O X X O | $$ | . O X O X X O | $$ -----------------[/go]

$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | O . X . X 5 O |
$$ | O 3 X X X O O |
$$ | O O X O O O O |
$$ | X O X O O O O |
$$ | X O X O O O O |
$$ | X O X O 2 4 O |
$$ | . O X O 7 6 O |
$$ -----------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ ----------------- $$ | O . X . X 5 O | $$ | O 3 X X X O O | $$ | O O X O O O O | $$ | X O X O O O O | $$ | X O X O O O O | $$ | X O X O 2 4 O | $$ | . O X O 7 6 O | $$ -----------------[/go]

$$Bm8
$$ -----------------
$$ | O . X . X O O |
$$ | O O X X X O O |
$$ | O O X O O O O |
$$ | X O X O O O O |
$$ | X O X O O O O |
$$ | X O X O . 1 O |
$$ | 2 O X O O . O |
$$ -----------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm8 $$ ----------------- $$ | O . X . X O O | $$ | O O X X X O O | $$ | O O X O O O O | $$ | X O X O O O O | $$ | X O X O O O O | $$ | X O X O . 1 O | $$ | 2 O X O O . O | $$ -----------------[/go]

$$Bm8
$$ -----------------
$$ | O . X . X O O |
$$ | O O X X X O O |
$$ | O O X O O O O |
$$ | . O X O O O O |
$$ | 4 O X O O O O |
$$ | . O X O 3 X O |
$$ | O O X O O 5 O |
$$ -----------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm8 $$ ----------------- $$ | O . X . X O O | $$ | O O X X X O O | $$ | O O X O O O O | $$ | . O X O O O O | $$ | 4 O X O O O O | $$ | . O X O 3 X O | $$ | O O X O O 5 O | $$ -----------------[/go]

$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | O . X . X . O |
$$ | O . X X X O O |
$$ | O O X O O O O |
$$ | Z O X O O O O |
$$ | Z O X O O . O |
$$ | Z O X O B B O |
$$ | . O X O B B O |
$$ -----------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | O . X . X . O | $$ | O . X X X O O | $$ | O O X O O O O | $$ | Z O X O O O O | $$ | Z O X O O . O | $$ | Z O X O B B O | $$ | . O X O B B O | $$ -----------------[/go]
had been captured, but was reborn
had been captured, and disappeared forever

? ? ?

almost perfect Cassandra.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm8 $$ ----------------- $$ | O 6 X . X O O | $$ | O O X X X O O | $$ | O O X O O O O | $$ | . O X O O O O | $$ | 4 O X O O O O | $$ | . O X O 3 X O | $$ | O O X O O 5 O | $$ -----------------[/go]

You must only add

above because this point is part of the local-2 string of black left group!

jmeinh · Post by **jmeinh** » Mon Aug 16, 2021 7:14 am

Gérard TAILLE wrote:
RobertJasiek wrote:Post it and your analysis regardless of whether I have time!
OK Robert here it is:

$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | O . X . X . O |
$$ | O . X X X O O |
$$ | O O X O O O O |
$$ | X O X O O O O |
$$ | X O X O O . O |
$$ | X O X O X X O |
$$ | . O X O X X O |
$$ -----------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | O . X . X . O | $$ | O . X X X O O | $$ | O O X O O O O | $$ | X O X O O O O | $$ | X O X O O . O | $$ | X O X O X X O | $$ | . O X O X X O | $$ -----------------[/go]
First of all you can verify that in "normal play" the game is finished. Neither Black nor white want to add a single move.
If I analyse this position with J89 rule it appears that all strings of stones are alive and I am happy with this. I expected this result which seems the result for all (?) sekis without ko.

What about J2003? Here the things are different due to local-2 context.

$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | O . X . X . O |
$$ | O . X X X O O |
$$ | O O X O O O O |
$$ | B O X O O O O |
$$ | B O X O O . O |
$$ | B O X O B B O |
$$ | . O X O B B O |
$$ -----------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | O . X . X . O | $$ | O . X X X O O | $$ | O O X O O O O | $$ | B O X O O O O | $$ | B O X O O . O | $$ | B O X O B B O | $$ | . O X O B B O | $$ -----------------[/go]
All groups are uncapturable except OC the two small marked black groups.
Now is the point : the big black group being uncapturable, when considering the status of any of the small black groups, then the big black group acts as a barrier for local-2 consideration.
As a consequence it looks that the small black group on the right is alive (capturable-1) while the left one is dead.
I can help you to prove that but firstly do you agree to say (if is true OC!) that this status of the left black stones (dead stones) is not what we would expect?

After a minor modification...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | O . X . X . O | $$ | O X X X X O O | $$ | O O X O O O O | $$ | B O X O O O O | $$ | B O X O O . O | $$ | B O X O B B O | $$ | . O X O O B O | $$ -----------------[/go]

... the result is a position that is structurally similar to Life-and-Death Example 4 and identical in terms of possible game outcomes or analysis results. Shouldn't similar considerations apply here as for Gérard's position? By this I mean especially the thought "the big black group acts as a barrier for local-2 consideration" (though I must admit I never fully understood J2003).

Gérard TAILLE · Post by **Gérard TAILLE** » Tue Aug 17, 2021 3:14 am

jmeinh wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
RobertJasiek wrote:Post it and your analysis regardless of whether I have time!
OK Robert here it is:

$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | O . X . X . O |
$$ | O . X X X O O |
$$ | O O X O O O O |
$$ | X O X O O O O |
$$ | X O X O O . O |
$$ | X O X O X X O |
$$ | . O X O X X O |
$$ -----------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | O . X . X . O | $$ | O . X X X O O | $$ | O O X O O O O | $$ | X O X O O O O | $$ | X O X O O . O | $$ | X O X O X X O | $$ | . O X O X X O | $$ -----------------[/go]
First of all you can verify that in "normal play" the game is finished. Neither Black nor white want to add a single move.
If I analyse this position with J89 rule it appears that all strings of stones are alive and I am happy with this. I expected this result which seems the result for all (?) sekis without ko.

What about J2003? Here the things are different due to local-2 context.

$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | O . X . X . O |
$$ | O . X X X O O |
$$ | O O X O O O O |
$$ | B O X O O O O |
$$ | B O X O O . O |
$$ | B O X O B B O |
$$ | . O X O B B O |
$$ -----------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | O . X . X . O | $$ | O . X X X O O | $$ | O O X O O O O | $$ | B O X O O O O | $$ | B O X O O . O | $$ | B O X O B B O | $$ | . O X O B B O | $$ -----------------[/go]
All groups are uncapturable except OC the two small marked black groups.
Now is the point : the big black group being uncapturable, when considering the status of any of the small black groups, then the big black group acts as a barrier for local-2 consideration.
As a consequence it looks that the small black group on the right is alive (capturable-1) while the left one is dead.
I can help you to prove that but firstly do you agree to say (if is true OC!) that this status of the left black stones (dead stones) is not what we would expect?
After a minor modification...

$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | O . X . X . O |
$$ | O X X X X O O |
$$ | O O X O O O O |
$$ | B O X O O O O |
$$ | B O X O O . O |
$$ | B O X O B B O |
$$ | . O X O O B O |
$$ -----------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | O . X . X . O | $$ | O X X X X O O | $$ | O O X O O O O | $$ | B O X O O O O | $$ | B O X O O . O | $$ | B O X O B B O | $$ | . O X O O B O | $$ -----------------[/go]
... the result is a position that is structurally similar to Life-and-Death Example 4 and identical in terms of possible game outcomes or analysis results. Shouldn't similar considerations apply here as for Gérard's position? By this I mean especially the thought "the big black group acts as a barrier for local-2 consideration" (though I must admit I never fully understood J2003).

The answer to your question in No. By the way in the example 4 as it stands this barrier exists already and you do not need to change the position.
Now I will try to explain why this barrier has no effect in your example (or in example 4 because it is the same).
The barrier is made of black stones => The barrier can have an effect only when looking for the status of black strings of stones. Here is the point : with no barrier, an "apparently" dead group of black stones (like the left small black group in my example) can become an "alive" group because new black alive stones can appear elsewhere on the board. With a barrier it could be different : the "apparently" dead group may stay dead because the new black alive stones are on the other side of the barrier. This happen in my example where the "apparently" left black group stay dead because of the barrier.
In your example all the black groups are all alive. Because there are no "apparently" dead group, the existing barrier has no effect.

Oops I am not sure I have been very clear

Cassandra · Post by **Cassandra** » Tue Aug 17, 2021 4:15 am

Gérard TAILLE wrote:
$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | O X . X . O . |
$$ | . O X X X O O |
$$ | O . O O X X O |
$$ | O O O . O X O |
$$ | X X O O X X O |
$$ | . X X O O O . |
$$ | X . X X X O O |
$$ -----------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | O X . X . O . | $$ | . O X X X O O | $$ | O . O O X X O | $$ | O O O . O X O | $$ | X X O O X X O | $$ | . X X O O O . | $$ | X . X X X O O | $$ -----------------[/go]
BTW, though the global ko-pass defined in J2003 is also a big progress, it is a pity to see that the status of white stones is still dead stones (=> seki => white should add a move)

I think it was Robert's intention to develop a logically closed and contradiction-free set of rules, which was able to achieve the desired results of the J89 life-and-death examples.
As far as I understand J2003, this particular ko-pass-rule is both appropriate and necessary to fulfill the above-mentioned task.

By the way:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | P X . X . O . | $$ | 1 O X X X O O | $$ | O 2 O O X X O | $$ | O O O . O X O | $$ | X X O O X X O | $$ | . X X O O O . | $$ | X . X X X O O | $$ -----------------[/go]

It does not matter that White would have to add a move to get rid of the seki in J89 status corfirmation.
During actual play, Black is able to capture

with

, forcing White to connect at

, also gaining that specific point, due to the just won prisoner.
However, this raises the question, why Black should benefit in the status confirmation from having made a mistake during actual play?

+ + + + + + + + + +

By the way #2:
An insight that I have gained from working with various sets of (territorial) rules:

BEFORE designing such a rule set, you will have to decide about at least two decisive questions:

Do you want to behave a final position differently, depending on whether a specific DOUBLE-Ko is already part of the final position

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | . X . X . O . | $$ | X O X X X O O | $$ | O O O O X X O | $$ | O O O . O X O | $$ | X X O O X X O | $$ | . X X O O O . | $$ | X . X X X O O | $$ -----------------[/go]

or not, but arises during the course of the status confirmation?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | O X . X . O . | $$ | 1 O X X X O O | $$ | O 2 O O X X O | $$ | O O O . O X O | $$ | X X O O X X O | $$ | . X X O O O . | $$ | X . X X X O O | $$ -----------------[/go]

Do you want to behave a final position differently, whether it contains a solidly connected TRIPLE-Ko that is shared by only two groups

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | . X X X O O O | $$ | O O X X O . . | $$ | O X 2 X O . . | $$ | O O X X O . . | $$ | O 3 O X O . . | $$ | O O X X O O O | $$ | O 1 O X O . . | $$ -----------------[/go]

or not, but has the three ko-shapes farther away from each other?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | 1 O O . O . O X 2 X O . O X . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . | $$ | X X . X X X O X O 3 O X X X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

J89 answers both quesions with "Yes!", but I doubt that this is mandatory.

Life In 19x19

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