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 Post subject: Help needed with Byo Yomi for a new clock im working on
Post #1 Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:29 am 
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Hi. First of all some transparency: i am one of 3 designers/developers working on the Tempest Game Clock some but this is not an ad for that, this is a call for some help from the Go community. Originally Tempest was envisioned as a chess clock and it does that very well. But since going on kickstarter, our founders have been hearing from Go players repeatedly to add byo-yomi. Our founders being chess players, asked me (a terrible go player!) to solve for ‘including a beautifully simple version of byo yomi, that prioritizes the most common go time controls, in order to keep it simple.’ there is a huge value placed on simplicity on tempest, so i have a problem. the more i read about go timing methods, the more overwhelmed im getting. and i don’t want to clutter the UI with 100 options. tempest is set so simply compared to dgt, game time, and other clocks we have benchmarked, that it’s almost like go itself : simple rules, beautiful results.

TO SET other time controls on it, users just swipe for MAIN GAME minutes (from 1min up to 2 hours). That’s it! no press and hold and tap tap tap and ‘mode’ this and ‘select’ that. It’s just swipe and play. bam. Now with chess, there are also increments (seconds added per move) but the game ends when main time end. incrments are also set by swipe. so to set blitz chess 5min + 2sec increments, you just swipe min and swipe seconds. the end. (yes, there are super advanced tournament time controls that this doesn’t address, but for 99% of uses the simplification of the UI is so worth it).

So: how to do this with byo yomi for go players? I would like some feedback or even direct engaged help from someone here offline perhaps. Our thought is that if 90% of go timing is covered by one primary method that we could (for now!) dispense with all the corner case. But what would that look like? My thought is: using the same swipe/swipe & play method as the above, we could say: Swipe for main time (as usual), but choose byoyomi (not incrments) by clicking the increment button to make it a [1] (1 extra period) where you then swipe the seconds (from 1 to 60, though this could be increased if you tell me it should) to indicate the byo-yomi time period… want more periods? just click that [1] to make it a [2] or a [3] etc… so you’d see a screen that basically looks like this: 60 [5] 60 and that would mean 60min for main time plus 5 periods of byoyomi of 60seconds each. and that whole ui would fit the tempest model perfectly as a super simple: swipe-swipe-set-it.

what i don’t know is does this capture 90% of casual (or tournament) time control needs without going into advanced corner cases…im working on a story board wireframe of this setting method right now. so i very much appreciate any help i get on this… who knows, i might even part with my tempest sample if someone wants to jump onto zoom to stress test this thing!

i hope i have convinced you that this is not an ad, but a call for help! so i am very respectfully pasting a link for anyone that is just wanting to see what i’m talking about for clarity. please don’t consider this spam, or if you do please tell me and i’ll remove the posting or rephrase my ask, but really i am trying to make a better product for go players, nothing more… here is what im refering to… so far byo yomi is just ‘announced’ but not yet developed though:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/te ... ref=51pkmf

With respect and thanks in advance for your help.
Tom.

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 Post subject: TempestClock
Post #2 Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 4:22 pm 
Honinbo
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Hi Tom,

Congrats on your Kickstarter. Two sample settings (per person):

Byo-yomi: ( 90 mins. initial ) + ( 5 x 1 min. ) ( similar to U.S. Open )
Attachment:
ByoYomi.png
ByoYomi.png [ 41.85 KiB | Viewed 931 times ]
Canadian: ( 1 min. initial ) + ( 30 mins. for 20 moves )
Attachment:
Canadian.png
Canadian.png [ 44.13 KiB | Viewed 931 times ]
Before 2020, the U.S. Open would start each morning around 9 am, and quite a few games would finish after 12 pm (90 mins. main time per person). For a game lasting over 3 hours, it was not a big hassle to set up the clock in under one minute. So the 'swipe + bam!' factor is not a deal-breaker for me, in this context. (Also a minimalist here. :blackeye: )
In general: ( main ) + ( OT x periods ); and ( moves_per_OT )

In sample 1: main = 90 mins. OT = 1 min. periods = 5. moves_per_OT = 1.

In sample 2: main = 1 min. OT = 30 mins. periods = Unlimited. moves_per_OT = 20.

Code:
                      Sample 1.      Sample 2.
main_time             90 mins.        1 min.
overtime               1 min.        30 mins.
overtime_periods       5             Unlimited
moves_per_overtime     1             20
( I'm not familiar with Fischer time. )
Thanks, and good luck! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Help needed with Byo Yomi for a new clock im working on
Post #3 Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:54 am 
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What you describe for chess is »Fischer time«, and it is well known and increasingly used also in the Go community. I personally believe that it is in all aspects superior to any »Byo-yomi« system, at least for all live settings (i. e., not correspondence).

There were/are already some simple clocks that just have that, with a rather simple user interface, e. g. the »DGT easy plus« and the »DGT 1002«.

So, if you want to keep it simple, you're done.

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 Post subject: Re: Help needed with Byo Yomi for a new clock im working on
Post #4 Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2021 1:45 pm 
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Hi,
To keep things simple, we need
-Main time (45 min, 1 hour etc)
-Kind of byo-yomi: canadian or japanese
--if canadian: number of stones and time (for example 15 stones in 5 minutes)
--if japanese: number of periods and time (for example 5 times 30 seconds)

In France, the standard is 1 hour + canadian byo-yomi 15 stones in 5 minutes. That's because most clubs still use mechanical clocks.

Fisher is confusing, because it is generally not said if the main time is part of a separate period or if it is included in a single period.
It seems that in go, Fisher means an initial time (say, 10 minutes), plus, for example, 10 seconds more for every move. But when we setup DGT 2010 or 3000 clocks, everyone mistakes Fisher periods for a main period of go, and programs the clock with a multi-period Fisher setting.

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 Post subject: Re: Help needed with Byo Yomi for a new clock im working on
Post #5 Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:46 am 
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Pio2001 wrote:
Fisher is confusing, because it is generally not said if the main time is part of a separate period or if it is included in a single period.


That's the first time I heard about this confusion. The answer is simple: you get the bonus time after each move, from the start.

I think this is a confusion that can only happen if you encountered japanese/canadian byoyomi before Fischer time.

Quote:
It seems that in go, Fisher means an initial time (say, 10 minutes), plus, for example, 10 seconds more for every move. But when we setup DGT 2010 or 3000 clocks, everyone mistakes Fisher periods for a main period of go, and programs the clock with a multi-period Fisher setting.


I have a rule of thumb that seems to hold up so far: bonus time should be about 1/120th of basic time, so »half of basic minutes in seconds«. For example: 20/10 (that is, 20 min basic time, 10 s bonus per move). For the usual weekend tournament games, 30/15 or 40/20 seem to work quite well.

Of course, mis-setting a confusing clock is not the fault of a simple timing system with just two numbers. I think it's good to have more non-confusing, simple clocks for this non-confusing, simple system.

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