Can you find this amazing AI move

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:05 pm

I was reviewing a game today and suddenly KataGo came up with a crazy move. I'll show the situation before the move, then progressively include tips

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W White to move $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X O O X X X O . . O X . . . | $$ | . . X O . X . O O O X O . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . O X X X O . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . X X . X O O . O X X . . | $$ | . . X X O O X X O X X . . X . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . O O X O O . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Describing the situation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Moves 87 to 87 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X O O X X X O . . O X . . . | $$ | . . X O . X . O O O X O . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . O X X X O . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O a X X . X O O . O X X . . | $$ | . . X X O O X X O X X . . X . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 1 . O O X O O . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

B1 is amistake. Black should connect at A to win the capturing race. But Black thinks he has time to play B1

Describing the problem:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Moves 87 to 87 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X O O X X X O . . O X . . . | $$ | . . X O . X . O O O X O . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . O X X X O . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O 2 X X . X O O . O X X . . | $$ | . . X X O O X X O X X . . X . O . . . | $$ | . 9 8 6 4 3 1 . O O X O O . . . O . . | $$ | . . . 7 5 O . . O . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If White cuts at W2, there's this [ladder]

What I did in the game, plus final hint

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Moves 87 to 87 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X O O X X X O . . O X . . . | $$ | . . X O . X . O O O X O . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . O X X X O . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O 3 X X . X O O . O X X . . | $$ | . . X X O O X X O X X . . X . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 1 . O O X O O . . . O . . | $$ | . . . 2 . O . . O . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I played this connection. You can also think of it as a [ladder breaker]. This gives Black time to connect.

KataGo finds another ladder breaker which DOES NOT give Black time to connect.

baduk · Post by **baduk** » Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:35 pm

Ohh this shape looks too familiar,once you solved a similar problem you see it everywhere at first glance

jlt · Post by **jlt** » Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:47 pm

This?

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Mon Sep 27, 2021 12:26 am

jlt found it and apparently it's a kind of AI cliché already - I'm amazed!

bernds · Post by **bernds** » Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:28 am

Knotwilg wrote:jlt found it and apparently it's a kind of AI cliché already - I'm amazed!

Don't know about AI cliche, but I think you see this sort of thing in problem books every now and then. I spotted the move too - I did not spot KataGo's continuation, however. The complications have really only started

John Fairbairn · Post by **John Fairbairn** » Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:28 am

: Capture.GIF (224.33 KiB) Viewed 14737 times

It's not quite the same thing but I just happen to have this game on my desk as I write. The move was by a young Go Seigen, and is considered so unremarkable it did not even merit a comment.

I have seen this sort of moves many times in real games, and there too it has often been uncommented.

I suggest the following remarks apply:

1. It is a move of a kind you will see a lot of if you replay pro games (as per pro advice) rather than do lots of tsumego (as per amateur obsession).
2. You will see it very occasionally in tsumego problems but rather more often in tesuji colllections (which are, ironically, rarer), as it is a tactical contact-fighting move rather than a killer move. But if you replay lots of pro games you will realise it is a fairly common suji move rather than a tesuji, hence the usual lack of commentary.
3. The second line may the "line of defeat" but it is also often the line for (te)suji, and Sakata above all taught us that. His nickname of Razor came from slicing jugulars on the second line.

What I am saying overall is that this is a frog-in-the-well situation. Said Kermit thinks the sky consists only of the blue circle he can see. (Sorry to be a wee bit Miss Piggy-ish about this.)

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:23 am

Thx John. Yes, the "belly attachment" is a rather common line of play (suji). In the problem I posted, the belly is one line bigger, which makes a difference for me in spotting the move.

I can fathom this is a piece of cake for a pro. So it's not an "AI move" just a move that I happened to discover that way. I'm a little skeptical of the triviality with which it is met but I guess I should replay more pro games so that I too can find this move with the blink of an eye.

bernds · Post by **bernds** » Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:20 am

Alright, I found the problem I was remembering. Graded Go Problems for Dan Players Volume 5, problem 154.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc19 $$-------------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . O O X X | $$ . . X . . . O O X X O . | $$ . . . . O X X X X O O . | $$ . . X . . . O O O . X . | $$ . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I think the theme is quite similar.

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:41 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$-------------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 1 5 O O X X | $$ . . X . . 2 O O X X O . | $$ . . . . O X X X X O O . | $$ . . X . . 3 O O O 4 X . | $$ . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This?

bernds · Post by **bernds** » Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:54 am

Knotwilg wrote:
$$B
$$-------------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 5 O O X X |
$$ . . X . . 2 O O X X O . |
$$ . . . . O X X X X O O . |
$$ . . X . . 3 O O O 4 X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$-------------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 1 5 O O X X | $$ . . X . . 2 O O X X O . | $$ . . . . O X X X X O O . | $$ . . X . . 3 O O O 4 X . | $$ . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
This?

Yes, that's one possibility.

and

are essentially miai for Black.

Harleqin · Post by **Harleqin** » Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:28 am

But…

bernds · Post by **bernds** » Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:50 am

Harleqin wrote:But…

Look for a

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:24 am

More analysis at

https://senseis.xmp.net/?BellyAttachmentLadderBreaker

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:29 pm

Harleqin wrote:But…
Can Black maybe counter like this?

$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O O X X X O . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . O O O X O . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . X X . X O O . O X X . . |
$$ | . 1 X X O O X X O X X . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . X . O O X O O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X O O X X X O . . O X . . . | $$ | . . X O . X . O O O X O . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . O X X X O . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . X X . X O O . O X X . . | $$ | . 1 X X O O X X O X X . . X . O . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . X . O O X O O . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

No, because...

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:33 am

Order of moves matters:

Life In 19x19

Can you find this amazing AI move

Can you find this amazing AI move

Re: Can you find this amazing AI move

Re: Can you find this amazing AI move

Re: Can you find this amazing AI move

Re: Can you find this amazing AI move

Re: Can you find this amazing AI move

Re: Can you find this amazing AI move

Re: Can you find this amazing AI move

Re: Can you find this amazing AI move

Re: Can you find this amazing AI move

Re: Can you find this amazing AI move

Re: Can you find this amazing AI move

Re: Can you find this amazing AI move

Re: Can you find this amazing AI move

Re: Can you find this amazing AI move