My point is that the liberty is on the outside of the group and connected to a group of the other color that is alive, but please bear with me I am going to try to elaborate.Gérard TAILLE wrote:In NORMAL PLAY and black to play then Black stones are dead because white has the advantage in the following ko fight. Now I just ask if they are also dead in CONFIRMATION PHASE which is less obvious.
Assuming the black group is not removed from the board at the end of the game I called the liberty dame because that is exactly what article 8 says. If the black group is to be removed then this liberty is territory.jann wrote:What is dame and what is a point of territory next to a dead string depends on status. During a dispute you cannot tell this in advance.
So what is suspect about the problem? Maybe it is our understanding or the interaction of our understanding with the actual method of pass-ko, but I feel there is something suspect here. Which may not be saying much new.
We have discussed before (maybe I can link it if I find it) that while article 8 seems to say that "dame makes seki" this has been rejected in practice. So if we are to conclude that the liberty is dame but the outside stones are not in seki, is this not a contradiction?
To boil it down, I do find the problem to be suspect because of the position of the liberty. One may sometimes conclude that this is seki if the outside group could be captured once the ko starts. On the other hand if one assumes the outside group is always alive then we have this contradiction of a dame that is connected to dead stones of one color and alive of the other.
I don't think j89 has strong enough statements about dame and seki to allow one a proof by contradiction that overrides what has already been shown using the pass-ko method (which raises the question of 'what is ko?') but I am now doubting one should accept it.