The "no ban in double ko" rule to solve pass-for-ko issue ?

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Re: The "no ban in double ko" rule to solve pass-for-ko issu

Post by CDavis7M »

jann wrote:If playing after opponent's pass is explicitly mentioned in resumption, and also explicitly mentioned in confirmation, that is strong hint that it is naturally ok in main game as well, even if the text doesn't happen to show explicit example of that too.
That's like saying "since dead stones being taken off the board is explicitly mentioned in the victory decision phase, and removing stones is also mentioned during the game phase, that is a strong hint that it is naturally ok in the main game take a group of stones off the board if they meet the definition of dead stones." If this statement is bogus, then so is passing during game-play.

But that's not how games rules work. An allowance for an action in one situation does not apply to other situations.
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Re: The "no ban in double ko" rule to solve pass-for-ko issu

Post by jann »

Japanese rules already define pass and board play as valid actions in main game. The question is only an artificial restriction of their use that you invented ("no board play after opponent's pass").
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Re: The "no ban in double ko" rule to solve pass-for-ko issu

Post by John Fairbairn »

I think we may be getting to the heart of the matter. I think also I may be cross-referencing threads, and I know that's confusing because I'm already confused by all these similar-sounding threads. But...
But that's not how games rules work. An allowance for an action in one situation does not apply to other situations.
But that's not how language rules work.

Although all humans share the same attributes, we have them in varying proportions, and for historical and geographical reasons clusters occur that can be described as cultural differences. We are here talking about Japan, and one of the most famous studies of cultural differences was Ruth Benedict's analysis of Japanese culture as opposed to the West's. Japan was a shame culture; the West's was a guilt culture. We say to a child you MUSTN'T do that. Japanese say that it's SHAMEFUL to do that. The study is now regarded as flawed in several respects, and I'm oversimplifying. But the core idea that cultural differences exist (within a state as well as between states) seems valid and useful.

Forgetting shame and guilt, a common divide we see in discussions of rules is what we can roughly describe as prescriptive and descriptive sides. The prescriptive side has a loud voice in the West. When you a see of rules in English, you instinctively assume there is an unspoken introduction that says, "This is what you MUST do and what CAN do." Japanese texts by and large are descriptive and start with a different unspoken assumption: "This is what WE JAPANESE (or WE PROS) do."

Both approaches can lead to confusion and arguments. The question is not automatically which approach is better, but which approach is actually in force. In the case of Japanese rules, the Japanese descriptive approach is obviously in force. Any attempt to wrestle the Japanese text into a western-style prescriptive text is doomed to failure, and is fundamentally dishonest.

A characteristic of prescriptive texts is that the writer will try to define words and concepts first and then try to fit all the following text to those definitions. It's a worthy goal, perhaps, but typically leads to constipated language, and it ignores the human propensity to bring up new or freak conditions and to say, "Ah, but if...?"

A characteristic of descriptive texts is that they very much depend on language, Instead of constipation they can lead to diarrhoea. A change of era or fashion can lead to words altering meaning or nuance, and can have the same effect as a change of diet. People from one generation or culture or background can see the same words in different ways.

Despite that, on the whole most people seem to prefer descriptive texts to prescriptive ones. We seem to resent any attempts to control us. A deeper analysis may be that prescriptivists are seeking ORDER. Descriptivists are seeking HARMONY.

If I'm right about that, and also if I'm right in saying that the Japanese rules are descriptive, a huge amount depends on language.

That means the onus is on us, in this case, to sort out what the Japanese are describing. In other posts I have tried to pinpoint a lot of the prior debate on rules in Japan that informed their attempts to write rules. There are many other parts of the context that I haven't touched on (e.g. parallel attempts to internationalise go, or even a touch of nationalism). It is that whole context that gives words, even technical terms, their nuances. It goes without saying that Japanese nuances are different from western nuances (and American nuances differ from English, etc). So how do we grasp those different nuances?

What I am leading up to is really for CDavis, as he has mentioned using DeepL and jisho for translations, because they are free. I suspect that may be a problem. I would suggest he should buy a proper paper dictionary rather than a copy of Games of Shuei.

Computer/app dictionaries, at least the free ones, seem to be generated by computer nerds just piling up unordered lists of words. Translation programs, at least the free ones, rely on looking for matching phrases in as large an unchecked corpus as possible and damn the context. That's fine if you just want a quick fix and your life doesn't depend on it. But if you really want to start on the (endless!) path of understanding the nuances, you need a dictionary lovingly prepared by a linguist who understands both languages and language in general. The differences are rarely immediately apparent, but a good linguist's dictionary is compiled in such a way that the nuances are weighted and ordered and (especially important) they pick up on the points that most often cause confusion. For Japanese I would therefore strongly recommend buying Kenkyusha (the "Green Goddess"), the old not the new Nelson, and Martin's reference grammar. They may be expensive but they will last a lifetime. I have over 300 dictionaries (and my wife has been known to complain she lives in a library). Nowadays I very rarely have to consult them, and if I do it's usually the 13-volume Morohashi Chinese-Japanese dictionary, which I like because it tends to give you the various nuances in source (i.e. date) order, rather like the OED. But despite their lack of current use, I treasure these books. Indeed, the Morohashi is on a shelf of its own facing me as I type, and every time I look up I see it and a warm glow comes over me.

Then I turn back to Rules19 and a cold shiver comes over me...
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Re: The "no ban in double ko" rule to solve pass-for-ko issu

Post by kvasir »

John Fairbairn wrote:A characteristic of prescriptive texts is that the writer will try to define words and concepts first and then try to fit all the following text to those definitions. It's a worthy goal, perhaps, but typically leads to constipated language, and it ignores the human propensity to bring up new or freak conditions and to say, "Ah, but if...?"
I can only really judge from the English translation. It does define terms and leaves very little undefined. It then ploughs through commentaries and 25 examples. Applying the rules deductively and showing the details every time something is demonstrated for the first time. It is actually not trivial to find positions to contradict the approach that is demonstrated in the examples. There must have been a lot of work that went into making this as a "prescriptive" text.
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Re: The "no ban in double ko" rule to solve pass-for-ko issu

Post by Cassandra »

John Fairbairn wrote:Although all humans share the same attributes, we have them in varying proportions, and for historical and geographical reasons clusters occur that can be described as cultural differences. We are here talking about Japan, and one of the most famous studies of cultural differences was Ruth Benedict's analysis of Japanese culture as opposed to the West's. Japan was a shame culture; the West's was a guilt culture. We say to a child you MUSTN'T do that. Japanese say that it's SHAMEFUL to do that. The study is now regarded as flawed in several respects, and I'm oversimplifying. But the core idea that cultural differences exist (within a state as well as between states) seems valid and useful.

Forgetting shame and guilt, a common divide we see in discussions of rules is what we can roughly describe as prescriptive and descriptive sides. The prescriptive side has a loud voice in the West. When you a see of rules in English, you instinctively assume there is an unspoken introduction that says, "This is what you MUST do and what CAN do." Japanese texts by and large are descriptive and start with a different unspoken assumption: "This is what WE JAPANESE (or WE PROS) do."
If "guilt culture's" analysis shows that the intended results of J89's L&D Examples can be reached under a prescriptive ban of cycles, it does not make any sense to whine around in that "guilt culture's" world that the "shame culture" has not explicitly described that utilising cycles is considered being shameful, as e.g. CDavis7M did repeatedly.

Both cultures being different, the reasoning for reaching an identical result can be different as well. This difference does not matter, as each reasoning is only valid inside one of both culture areas.
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Re: The "no ban in double ko" rule to solve pass-for-ko issu

Post by CDavis7M »

John Fairbairn wrote:Japanese texts by and large are descriptive and start with a different unspoken assumption: "This is what WE JAPANESE (or WE PROS) do." ... In the case of Japanese rules, the Japanese descriptive approach is obviously in force. Any attempt to wrestle the Japanese text into a western-style prescriptive text is doomed to failure, and is fundamentally dishonest...If I'm right about that, and also if I'm right in saying that the Japanese rules are descriptive, a huge amount depends on language.
Ok. If that is the case then I can agree that Japanese Go Rules are descriptive of what Japanese professionals do. And Japanese professional Go players do not needlessly pass in the middle of the game so it is not mentioned in the descriptive rules of what Japanese Professionals do. Passing is only used to resolve life & death and end-of-game and so it is only mentioned there.

In that case, if someone needlessly passes in the middle of the game (just because they are so far ahead), it does not mean that they have broken the Japanese Rules. It just turns out that they are actually not playing Japanese Go at all, whether they intended to, or wanted to, or not. From the way that they are playing it must be some other version of Go (likely computer-centric Go). So, it still does not make sense to talk about the Japanese Rules while also discussing passing in the middle of the game.
John Fairbairn wrote:What I am leading up to is really for CDavis, as he has mentioned using DeepL and jisho for translations, because they are free. I suspect that may be a problem. I would suggest he should buy a proper paper dictionary rather than a copy of Games of Shuei...I have over 300 dictionaries (and my wife has been known to complain she lives in a library). Nowadays I very rarely have to consult them
Well, if you have any spare dictionaries you could put them up for sale: viewforum.php?f=20
Last edited by CDavis7M on Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The "no ban in double ko" rule to solve pass-for-ko issu

Post by Cassandra »

J89's legal text starts (amoung other things) with a declaration that these rules MUST be operated on the basis of good spirit.
Article 1 states the purpose of the game being a competition for more or less territory.
Article 10, Clause 2 states that prisoners reduce opponent's territory.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ -----------------
$$ | O O X X X O O |
$$ | # O . X O O # |
$$ | # O O X . O # |
$$ | . O X X X O . |
$$ -----------------[/go]
NOT capturing Black's marked stones violates Article 1 (in conjunction with the demand for "good spirit"), as White would NOT strive for "less" Black territory.
Thus, the game cannot stop with this position on the board.

Black's first "pass" cannot be a declaration that the game might stop, as there still will be Black stones remaining on the board that must also be taken off.
Considering Black's first "pass" being a declaration that the game might stop, would be a violation of the demand for "good spirit".

AFTER all Black's marked stones have been taken off the board, Black's SECOND "pass" indeed is a declaration that the game might stop.

A "pass" cannot be a "declaration that the game might stop", as long as there are still obviously valuable moves remaining on the board, which affect "more or less territory".
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Re: The "no ban in double ko" rule to solve pass-for-ko issu

Post by CDavis7M »

note: the threads are getting crossed again. This really seems more related to "superko is bad game design" thread.
Cassandra wrote:A "pass" cannot be a "declaration that the game might stop", as long as there are still obviously valuable moves remaining on the board, which affect "more or less territory".
You can keep trying but we have already discussed that at the end-of-game, the Japanese rules allow for resuming and passing, and there is no misunderstanding of context between the players. If one player passes to end the game, the other player does not need to bother with formally resuming the game. The players already have had a meeting of the minds as to whether the game can be resumed and the turn passed. They may continue with end-of-game actions.
======
Cassandra wrote:A "pass" cannot be a "declaration that the game might stop", as long as there are still obviously valuable moves remaining on the board, which affect "more or less territory".
"Stopping" the game doesn't mean actually finishing the game prevent capturing stones. Resumption at the end-of-game phase to finish off these moves is easily allowed. Passing is a declaration to stop the game. Not a declaration to score the game.
=====
Cassandra wrote:NOT capturing Black's marked stones violates Article 1 (in conjunction with the demand for "good spirit"), as White would NOT strive for "less" Black territory.
I never disagreed that it was not "good spirit." I just said that there was no issue with scoring or gameplay in this position.

Also, your argument on "good spirit" contradicts what you previously said that was the start of this whole discussion:
Cassandra wrote:A "pass" is nothing more than a waiver of this right. The waiver of this right does not carry another message than "You may exercise your right." (I do not mind, as I am so large ahead.
So I guess the end of this discussion you cannot be pass in the middle of the game under the Japanese rules just because you are "so large ahead" as that would violate "good spirit." This is not how Japanese professionals play. If you want to pass in the middle of the game, you are not playing Japanese Go.
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Re: The "no ban in double ko" rule to solve pass-for-ko issu

Post by Cassandra »

CDavis7M wrote:Also, your argument on "good spirit" contradicts what you previously said that was the start of this whole discussion:
Cassandra wrote:A "pass" is nothing more than a waiver of this right. The waiver of this right does not carry another message than "You may exercise your right." (I do not mind, as I am so large ahead.
So I guess the end of this discussion you cannot be pass in the middle of the game under the Japanese rules just because you are "so large ahead" as that would violate "good spirit." This is not how Japanese professionals play. If you want to pass in the middle of the game, you are not playing Japanese Go.
You should not take everything literally and out of context.
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Re: The "no ban in double ko" rule to solve pass-for-ko issu

Post by Cassandra »

CDavis7M wrote:Resumption at the end-of-game phase to finish off these moves is easily allowed. Passing is a declaration to stop the game. Not a declaration to score the game.
Do you really want to say that Black is allowed to start the resumed game with a "pass", stating that the game should be stopped?
Do you really want to say that White is allowed to play a real move after Black's suggestion to stop the game?

Don't you think that this is where the bat bites its own tail?
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