Xie Yimin Promoted to 7d!

[John Fairbairn]

And I can also guess that he is not much fun at parties from his dusty Twitter account (linked on that page)

Any young person who does not use social media is a hero in my eyes, but in any case there is a much more likely explanation than dourness: survival instinct. He is married to female go player Mannami Nao.

[pajaro]

And I can also guess that he is not much fun at parties from his dusty Twitter account (linked on that page)

there is a much more likely explanation than dourness: survival instinct. He is married to female go player Mannami Nao.

He has the same look than in the official Nihon Kiin photo

John is probably right: his wife tells him "let's go have dinner with my friends". Then, he may like the plan... or not.

[CDavis7M]

The Nihon Kiin just posted a fun article about how everyone adores Xie Yimin and how she is like their oneesan (big sister). I must be missing a lot of background. Maybe this article is a follow up to something? It seems like there are some inside jokes. But to me, she always looks so serious (sinister even) and so this article is news to me - she seems very likeable. I have no way to understand the tone of the author, but the article seems playful, not sarcastic. But I have to wonder.

https://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/etc/go_week ... in010.html

From the article:

[John Fairbairn]

Definitely no sarcasm. I haven't ever paid much attention to Xie Yimin but she is definitely popular and respected.

The article you reference is not really about her. It is about the four-character phrases that are so popular in Japan. There have always been plenty of books on these, but nowadays just about every kids' manga star has a book devoted to them, and I think there are apps, too, now. They are nearly all Chinese phrases and so need explaining to Japanese people. This series is by the pair Tsururin, that is Tsuruyama Atsushi and Rin Kanketsu. This is a take on the ever-popular poetic-sounding Chikurin phrase, but with a bit of a jokey sound, a play on tsururi-to).

Each article is about a particular phrase and then the pair try to find an illustrative example from the go world. The phrase here is 英姿颯爽 (eishi sassou) which means cutting a heroic or valiant dashing figure. It basically refers to men but in sport seems to have a certain popularity (in Japan and China) for use about women who do well in fields (such as sport itself) usually dominated by men. Xie Yimin has certainly done that. She is in the top ten of all players in number of titles won (and the only woman, of course). She is noted for having an aggressive style, but that is usually regarded as a female trait in Japanese go!

As to cutting a dashing figure, despite being Taiwanese, she has always happily succumbed to the ordeal of dressing up in Japanese kimonos for photographers. She looks stunning, but her willingness to embrace traditional Japanese culture is also much appreciated.

Another factor that may have influenced her selection here is that Rin Kanketsu is also Taiwanese. He is older and so can call her She-chan. She studied in Japan with Ko Mosei, also Taiwanese, and the Taiwanese go players in Japan do seem to stick together.

Xie may seem to be "a lady of a certain age" but actually she's still just 30. The point is, she qualified as a pro at age 13.

[CDavis7M]

Oh, I didn't know what yojijukugo (四字熟語) were. No wonder! Thank you for explaining. It's more fun than I first thought. Now I wonder if any Go proverbs are actually yojijukugo. But I don't think so because they are too long or too direct. But 一石二鳥 would fit many situations and it includes 石. There are lots of books on yojijukugo. And you can even learn from a cat, my purrferred study method.

And not to spend too much time on Ida here, but I noticed that he was also donned with a yojijukugo: 獅子奮迅 (shishi funjin ?) lion dash/rush -- meaning intense, furious, high-energy, etc. https://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/etc/go_week ... in008.html. Here, they use this idiom to describe the fighting style in Go. Though the article suggests that Ida changed his pace after playing Iyama. From the article, Yamashita seems to be the pinnacle of Lion-dash fighting. Even I have heard of his fighting style.

---------

Well, I've been derailed. As these articles say, the main yojijukugo articles are in "Go Weekly." Which happens to be available for free on "Kindle Unlimited". Go World too by the way. Not the most recently published, and not everything in the past, but a lot of the most recent publications.

Recently Mannami Nao (万波　奈穂) 4 dan was donned with a yojijukugo. 八方美人 (happo bijin), which is "8-direction beautiful woman" -- meaning people pleaser or maybe "social butterfly." But this could also be derogatory similar to "two-faced" (from what I've read). So I still sort of wonder what "Tsururin" are going for here. Unfortunately Go Weekly has too many articles on the same page. So while it is high resolution, the individual characters are low-resolution for OCR and even hard for my eyes. Maybe these will be fun to practice my reading later.

[John Fairbairn]

獅子奮迅 (shishi funjin ?) lion dash/rush -- meaning intense, furious, high-energy, etc.

Not quite. It's more like "rushing ahead impetuously" on its own, but it is often used in the 獅子奮迅の勢いで which means "with irresistible force". I imagine that was what was intended in respect of Yamashita.

Incidentally, I think it was you who asked a while back about kanji readings. 獅子 throws up a nice example. This is shishi (lion). But 子獅子 (lion cub) is kojishi. On a scale of 1 to 5 this is just a half a star, but still, it's worth knowing.

As to 八方美人, it's not limited to women, although a base meaning is indeed someone beautiful to look at form all directions, and you can't say that about many fellas, because even if they do look good, the smug look on their face usually ruins the overall impression. Women know better how to present themselves. But it's not just about looks, anyway. It often has an extended positive meaning of affable, but also sometimes a negative one of "a friend to all is a friend to none."

I didn't read the Mannami article, but I'd imagine that was meant was "affable", or just possibly they had in mind the Handsome Nell of Rabbie Burns's first poem:

O Once I lov'd a bonnie lass,
An' aye I love her still,
An' whilst that virtue warms my breast,
I'll love my handsome Nell.

As bonnie lasses I hae seen,
And mony full as braw;
But for a modest gracefu' mein,
The like I never saw.

A bonny lass I will confess,
Is pleasant to the e'e,
But without some better qualities
She's no a lass for me.

But Nelly's looks are blythe and sweet,
And what is best of a',
Her reputation is compleat,
And fair without a flaw;

She dresses ay sae clean and neat,
Both decent and genteel;
And then there's something in her gait
Gars ony dress look weel.

A gaudy dress and gentle air
May slightly touch the heart,
But it's innocence and modesty
That polishes the dart.

'Tis this in Nelly pleases me,
'Tis this enchants my soul;
For absolutely in my breast
She reigns without controul.

You will see there that handsome, though usually associated with men, is possible for women, too, in the same way that bijin is unisex.

As to 4-character proverbs, well, yes there are more than a few. They tend to be from days of yore and not easy to read for most Japanese, so they rarely crop up now.

An example is 慎勿軽速　(Make haste slowly). In go the meaning is, when attacking or running away, don't leave weak points behind, even if it means going more slowly. E.g. rather than play tobi, tobi, keima, tobi, play kosumi, keima, kosumi, tobi. This is read "tsutsushimite keisoku naru nakare", so you need to know kanbun and classical Japanese. These are taught at school in Japan, of course, but then Chaucer is taught in English schools, but how many pupils ever get beyond the dirty bits in the Wife of Bath? Likewise in Japan. But Chaucer did say: "The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne." Oh, so true!

[CDavis7M]

Not quite. It's more like "rushing ahead impetuously" on its own, but it is often used in the 獅子奮迅の勢いで which means "with irresistible force". I imagine that was what was intended in respect of Yamashita.

Is that definition from the Kenkyusha dictionary or from experience? I'm still working from Jisho but found a 4th edition of Kenkyusha for a good price that eBay keeps reminding me about.

Incidentally, I think it was you who asked a while back about kanji readings. 獅子 throws up a nice example. This is shishi (lion). But 子獅子 (lion cub) is kojishi. On a scale of 1 to 5 this is just a half a star, but still, it's worth knowing.

Probably was me. I was looking for consistency and there just isn't much. There seems to be a taste for variety.

An example is 慎勿軽速　(Make haste slowly). In go the meaning is, when attacking or running away, don't leave weak points behind, even if it means going more slowly. E.g. rather than play tobi, tobi, keima, tobi, play kosumi, keima, kosumi, tobi. This is read "tsutsushimite keisoku naru nakare", so you need to know kanbun and classical Japanese. These are taught at school in Japan, of course, but then Chaucer is taught in English schools, but how many pupils ever get beyond the dirty bits in the Wife of Bath? Likewise in Japan. But Chaucer did say: "The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne." Oh, so true!

Wait a second! The entire game of Go can be explained with these 4-character idioms in the "Ten Maxims" found in Wizardry from the Stone Chamber. These Chinese scholars were brilliant. I think 慎勿軽速 is #7 but the 3rd character in Wizardry from the Stone Chamber looks different. Well, the editorial mentions there are variations of #7. Presumably this 4 character format calls back to Art of War?

...this is the second discussion to connect back to Wang firewood collector (even if he post-dated the list)

[John Fairbairn]

Is that definition from the Kenkyusha dictionary or from experience? I'm still working from Jisho but found a 4th edition of Kenkyusha for a good price that eBay keeps reminding me about.

It's not a binary thing. I will certainly have used a dictionary at some point, but whether it was Kenkyusha is lost in the haze of the past. I have dictionaries of idioms, for example. And I don't use dictionaries to look up words. I read them. Which gives me lots of experience.

My language-learning differs from all other linguists I know (and I know very many). It's rooted in my family background, but to summarise the surface view, I have found three approaches that I swear by. I'm not saying they will be useful or relevant to you, or anyone else, but I've found over the years that it can be useful and sometimes inspiring to hear how other people think. That's one of my own favourite things, and so I offer my own experiences in that spirit.

So, back to our muttons. One approach I swear by is to learn every word in 6 or 7 contexts. I read years ago that you had to encounter anything about 6 times before you memorised it. At school, other people learned lists of vocabulary by repeatedly chanting them. I learned them by exploring contexts until I had found 6 or 7. Not always possible in those pre-internet days. One way I used was to pester my teacher. There was a word - I've forgotten which - that had something to do with balls. I asked the teacher what was French for tennis ball, what was French for a masked ball, and so on. So I was learning words other than ball, such as tennis and masked, but also getting my dose of 6 or 7 contexts. I was learning associations and nuances. We all do this, of course, but I was doing it on turbocharge. I did this all the time and drove the teacher spare. I remember this particular item because I managed to stump him: he didn't know what a billiard ball was in French. But in the process I learned a little about French culture. I didn't ask about cojones because I was only 11 at the time. The result was that with my approach I scored 100% in language exams and no-one else got beyond 70%. That was pretty strong reinforcement, and it was reinforced even more by a teacher giving me half a crown for getting my first 100%.

The second approach that was useful for me was an accidental discovery. I was a chess player from a very young age and so used to follow the Russian scene. In my case that meant learning to read Russian chess magazines. What I picked up from that exercise was that if you stick to one topic in language learning it can be super-efficient to devote a lot of time reading about your topic in that language. The point is that you are only seeing words that you want and never seeing words you will never meet again, so it's close to 100% efficient in vocabulary terms.

My awareness of the value of this approach was reinforced by a small blip. In one of our class vocabulary lists was the French word glycine, given as wisteria. I had absolutely no idea what a wisteria was, couldn't find out, and never did find out till I was in my thirties. Other flower words in the list easily stuck in my head because I had associations (e.g. a carnation was used as buttonholes at weddings and featured on tins of Carnation evaporated milk we had as a special teatime treat). But a wisteria was not part of my experience, and never likely to be, so I was inclined to ignore it. Nevertheless, probably because it stood out, it did stick in my mind, and much, much later I discovered that it was really a mistake because it was named after Caspar Wistar and so should properly be wistaria. Nowadays I walk several times past a cottage that is covered in purple wistaria, so it's turned out to be a big word in my life! That's part of something else I learned early on: nothing is ever wasted when learning. You never know what coincidences will turn up later on. Inefficiencies can turn out to be efficient.

Because this efficiency-based approach worked very well for me, the feedback loop reinforced it in my head, and I eventually used the same approach when teaching a Japanese reading course at Newcastle university. My students were all PhD candidates, which helped of course, but the most important feature was that they were all naval architecture students and had a very limited range of interest. They wanted only to read (not speak), and to read only Japanese shipbuilding magazines. So the vocabulary was limited, but so was the grammar (e.g. dearu form not desu is used in such technical articles, no -masu forms, no onomatopoeia, etc). As a result the course was just 49 hours, of which 12 or 13 was devoted to using Nelson and Kenkyusha. About a dozen students took a final exam, which was to translate a paper supplied by the local ship research association. All passed with honours and then we parted. I thought I'd never find out how they got on with their Japanese. But years later, after I had moved to London, my eldest daughter was at school was approached by another pupil who said, "My dad knows your dad." She had twigged from name, which is unusual down south, and some reference to hearing that I knew Japanese, that I was a person her own father had talked about. And it turned out he was still using his Japanese as a naval architect. So, again coincidences do have a habit of biting you in the bum, but, more to the point, it confirms that a stripped-down but tailor-made approach to language learning can be fast yet highly efficient.

My third approach is that, as I say, I read dictionaries. The starting point may be to look up a word, but I then read round about that entry to see if I can get my ration of 6 or 7 contextual examples, and before I know what's happened I may have read 3 or 4 pages about other words. I find this especially fruitful in English, or my huge Morohashi Chinse-Japanese dictionary, because they give etymologies, sources or early citations, which I lap up. And which eventually turn out to be useful - nothing is ever wasted. I've learned a lot of Greek from etymologies, and quite a bit about Chinese histories and Tang poems.

As readers will know from my posts on go terms, associations and nuances of words play a big role on my thinking. We all rely on associations, because that's how the brain works, but they are made by the subconscious brain and we are not usually aware of the process. However, I get the impression that for many people one area will tend to come to the surface often. For what I call numbers guys, they can be very aware of number associations. At least, some of them have told me things like looking at car number-plates and working out their prime numbers (or something like that). I had a classmate at grammar school who became an eminent musician and who would tell me what key things like church bells were sounding in as we walked along the street.

In my case it's word associations I'm aware of. As an example, when you mentioned bijin what leapt in to my mind was a very long association. The starting point was that you rendered bijin as beautiful woman, but I jibbed at that because bijin is asexual, and from that came the word handsome, which is usually used of men, but I remembered Handsome Nell. That poem reminded me of the word (and the spelling) compleat, which was sparked off by the word happo (all directions = complete). Compleat brought to mind Izaac Walton who wrote The Compleat Angler. I have no interest in angling but Isaac Walton was coincidentally the name of the shop where we had to buy our school uniforms, and this shop had a framed print of a cover of the book. Thinking of schooldays also brought back to mind days of having to sing Burns's songs (for non-Brits he was the guy behind Auld Lang Syne, but there's about 600 other songs of his). And so by then (though with a little side trip up a cul-de-sac to ponder on the difference between Izaak and Isaac) I was led inexorably to quoting Burns's poem, which seems to be perfect description of happo bijin.

Since then my mind has wondered on along the same track, with forks such as Eskimo Nell. But the path I have followed is that, again by coincidence, as it is our Autumn Ball, and one of the ladies I hope to dance with is a descendant of Burns, tonight I have decided to wear my Burns kilt, which is made up of a black and white check. Which brings us back to go.... Sumire wears the border tartan in her face-mask. She too has to get dolled up for photographers in beautiful kimonos, and so has to be a bijin. Which brings us back to the subject of this thread, Xie Yimin.

That's how my mind works. Very much word-based, but as I said, I like hearing how other minds work. Any offers?

[pajaro]

Usually, I jump from one thought to the next by association of ideas. I can't tell if it some word that triggers the change, or a concept, or...

I think my brain is more number oriented, in the sense that I think using probabilities rather than in yes/no terms. Many people say "this is never true because it once happened to me this and that". Or "this example is proof that this statement is absolutely certain". Of course they don't say "never", "absolutely"... but underneath, the ideas are there. The world is not so simple. It is obvious to me. But not to everybody, it seems.

Is this what John was asking about? Unlikely. Is this an example of how my brain works? Maybe. The point, perhaps, is that he talked about his thinking process, I talked about something that happens in my brain, and to figure up the relation of both things is up to the reader.

What I found interesting was his process of learning languages and new words. 6 or 7 contexts? Interesting. I have been trying to learn Japanese for a long time. I more or less know a bit of grammar, but I find it very difficult to remember the words. "because you don't practice it", is what I think. But "because you don't have different situations for every word" might be more accurate. I only have the examples from books.

Still more interesting (to me): John used two words in my two native languages. Can you identify them?

This is becoming waaaay off-topic. So, back to Xie Yimin and her likeability:
she is a older than Fujisawa Rina, Ueno Asami, and younger than Suzuki Ayumi. So maybe she is closing some generational gap. And Ayumi is married to Rin Kintetsu (the Rin in Tsururin). So perhaps they tried to picture a nice description of Xie Yimin.

[CDavis7M]

I've found over the years that it can be useful and sometimes inspiring to hear how other people think. That's one of my own favourite things, and so I offer my own experiences in that spirit.

I've been mulling this over for a few days and I realized a thing or two about my own thoughts and learning. So I do appreciate the insight.

It is a relief and encouragement to hear about the Newcastle shipbuilding students. My only real goal and hope is to be able to read Japanese Go books. And if I am lucky, pick up enough to understand most of Go news articles and interviews with a dictionary. And studying Go does seem efficient as I already feel comfortable with tsumego hints in Japanese.

As for 6 or 7 contexts, I don't know if this is exactly the same, but I've been recognizing characters used for Go in other contexts, but with different meanings. It would be better if the context were Go and I think that should be possible. I'll give it a try.
雨降って地固まる
残り3点（入荷予定あり）

And thinking more about how I learn, I realized that I do too much learning for work and so when I'm on my own time I need to enjoy what I'm learning to make progress. This thinking led me back to the first Japanese word I learned to recognize about 15 years ago: スープラ (a Toyota). And thinking more, earlier in my life I used to love watching this awesome Japanese cooking show that made it to the US called Iron Chef (料理の鉄人). I'm going to return to these other interests, even if it reduces some efficiency I would have if I just focused on Go. I think I'll have more fun that way. I already have a magazine in my cart.

[John Fairbairn]

At the risk of belabouring my own points, I'll venture to make a couple of points.

I'm going to return to these other interests, even if it reduces some efficiency I would have if I just focused on Go.

No, that will never reduce efficiency. Efficiency here is defined as being able to read whatever you want to read (as opposed to what a teacher or text book tells you to read). If you want to read about go alone, fine. If you want to read about go+cars, that's just as fine. It may even be better, because on the principle that nothing is ever wasted, you may find that the car world gives you insights about the go world, and vice versa.

As for 6 or 7 contexts, I don't know if this is exactly the same, but I've been recognizing characters used for Go in other contexts, but with different meanings. It would be better if the context were Go and I think that should be possible.

Following on from the above. it is exactly the same. When I was learning languages, the internet was not available and finding multiple contexts was not easy in a town that had one bookshop which did not stock language books or foreign-language dictionaries (you had to order them and wait weeks, but finding out first that they even existed was a real challenge). But the internet does exist now, so I can give you a super tip. When you want to learn ABOUT a word (note I always instinctively make a distinction between 'learn' and 'learn about'), a good way to start is to do a google search on it and chose "Images". You get all sorts of nuances and unexpected meanings, and the visual impact makes learning easier. You can refine it usefully sometimes by adding 碁.

This can be eye-opening for anyone. For example, to get a sense of the relationship between 厚み and 厚さ thicknesses, do a couple of searches: 厚み + 碁 and 厚さ + 碁. Ask yourself why you don't get more or less identical results. Then try influence: 勢力 + 碁.

[CDavis7M]

At the risk of belabouring my own points, I'll venture to make a couple of points.

No risk -- much appreciated!

This can be eye-opening for anyone. For example, to get a sense of the relationship between 厚み and 厚さ thicknesses, do a couple of searches: 厚み + 碁 and 厚さ + 碁. Ask yourself why you don't get more or less identical results. Then try influence: 勢力 + 碁.

...from what I can tell from google images (helpful) and a dictionary (not helpful), 厚み is important to consider when playing Go stones while 厚さ is important to consider when buying Go stones. Though I checked Kurokigoishiten and their websites states "正味厚み" for stones and "厚み" for boards. I don't understand why 厚み is a game term and 厚さ is not, but 厚み has a secondary definition of "profundity; depth" while 厚さ is limited to the first definition of "thickness". Luckily I am not the first to wonder about this and "厚さ vs 厚み" yielded answers from the internet which might be found in a better dictionary. 厚さ is thickness of an object, like numerical thickness in mm and cm, while 厚み can refer to a feeling of thickness or depth -- sensory. In learning this, I found a dictionary that said as much.

Searching for 厚 alone, I learned about women's lips (lipstick), which led me to 厚化粧 (makeup), and then I circled back to Jisho.org for more words using 厚 and discovered 厚着, which had my favorite image. Thanks for the neat idea. I don't think I can forget 厚み now. My homework assignment is attached, Professor Fairbairn.

[John Fairbairn]

厚み is a game term and 厚さ is not

It very much is! The trajectory of many games can be viewed as turning atsumi into atsusa. Cho Chikun is especially fond of this. Atsusa is also implied in the use of atsui in the endgame.

See Go Wisdom, which will take you to the next part of the adventure - walls. Which brick do you have to push to proceed further?

[CDavis7M]

It very much is! The trajectory of many games can be viewed as turning atsumi into atsusa. Cho Chikun is especially fond of this. Atsusa is also implied in the use of atsui in the endgame.

Yeah, I guess territory is really just 厚さ "thickness", especially when counting at the end.

See Go Wisdom, which will take you to the next part of the adventure - walls. Which brick do you have to push to proceed further?

Well, I only have Teenage Meijin with Go Wisdom. But I discovered teastui and also I learned from Go Seigen that it will take a lot of moves to kill a 3-stone wall.

Thanks for all the tips.

[pajaro]

For those fans who do not know, the expected Yimin vs. Atsushi, for a seat in the Meijin league, was played.
Sadly (for most people here ) Yimin lost. B+2.5
I think it was quite an even game. Both players put up a good fight, but somehow, in the second half of the game she started struggling and Atsushi had more control of the game.