It is currently Thu Oct 31, 2024 4:17 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 5 posts ] 
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: KataGo Ladder Blindness
Post #1 Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 9:50 am 
Beginner

Posts: 2
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 1
As a long-time lurker I guess this is as good a first post as any.

I encountered this position some time ago (back in June I think), while pitching one of KataGo's distributed networks against Leela Zero. KataGo is Black and Leela is White. I didn't post this earlier because I was interested to see, if the training would rectify it on its own. But as it is, even the current networks enter into this variation (despite high playouts) and do not realize that the ladder doesn't work until it's too late.

Interestingly enough, the final network of the pre-distributed run (b40c256x2-s509) has no problems at all with this ladder. Is it possible that there is a risk of introducing new blind spots as the training goes on?

I think this is the move in question:

Image


The image above shows the analysis of the currently highest-rated 40b network (b40c256-s1049) and it suggests a game-losing blunder after more than 500k playouts.
I remember lightvector saying (on this forum I think) that he could insert these kind of positions into the training, so I hope this is useful.

The sgf file contains only one variation (the original I encountered), but some networks might propose a different order of moves.


Attachments:
KataGo Blindspot.sgf [825 Bytes]
Downloaded 425 times

This post by sunshower was liked by: lightvector
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: KataGo Ladder Blindness
Post #2 Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 11:20 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 211
Liked others: 16
Was liked: 62
Rank: KGS 1k EGF 2k
KGS: Schachus12
sorry for being stupid, I assume it is blacks move.

Where is the ladder? The only potential ladder I can see is the one starting with the move that has 16 playouts in your picture, but it doesnt seem to work(if black pulls out 3 times then capturing the one stone will put another in atari) or am I mistaken? Edit: I see you provided an sgf, I cant open it currently unfortunately, but will check it later

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: KataGo Ladder Blindness
Post #3 Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 12:06 pm 
Beginner

Posts: 2
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 1
Sorry, maybe the post is a bit confusing. The picture does not show the actual ladder but the move that KataGo wants to play because it wrongly assumes that there is a ladder. The attached sgf file goes a few moves further and includes the ladder in question.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: KataGo Ladder Blindness
Post #4 Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:38 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 758
Liked others: 114
Was liked: 916
Rank: maybe 2d
Thanks for the example! There appears to be a deep ladder breaker tactic that is being read incorrectly, it's not exactly a blind spot, just some misreading. I'll see if this can be a useful training sample.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: KataGo Ladder Blindness
Post #5 Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2021 11:16 pm 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5546
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1104
Was liked: 1456
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
sunshower wrote:
...The attached sgf file ...



_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 5 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group