War of aggression that will affect all of us.

[kvasir]

Today there are news of an absolutely horrific war of aggression unfolding in Europe. A large scale military invasion by Russia of Ukraine commencing in the early morning. There are reports of armored columns crossing the boarder from Belarus. Reports of fighting at the boarder with Russia. Possible amphibious landings near Odessa. Heavy bombardment of military headquarters and airports. Even towns being evacuated. It is horrible.

It may not be the most significant thought at such times that Ukraine has a vibrant Go community and is slated to host the European Go Congress next year (and indeed would have last year if it wasn't for the pandemic). This is still the case and many of us know many Ukrainians and Go in Europe is really a tightly knit community. These event are also likely to touch many more people than is easy to contemplate.

I wanted to say that I hope our friends in Ukraine will be save and offer solidarity in face of this aggression. That I hope this war can still be ended and that those responsible for this crime can be brought to justice.

[jlt]

Letter from the British Go Association to EGF Executive.

Screen-2-25-2022_123500_PM.png (528.96 KiB) Viewed 20828 times

[John Fairbairn]

This is a highly troubling letter.

Leaving aside the practical fact that the EGF is not even of the stature of a pimple on the bum of a fly on the back of a dinosaur, it is asking Russian go players (hitherto regarded as friends and colleagues, I believe) to risk their personal safety by publicly condemning appallingly ruthless authorities.

Further, by mentioning specifically Kovaleva by name, it leaves a nasty, besmirching cloud over someone who has not hitherto been classed as a Putinesque oligarch or sympathiser. For all we know, she might need our support.

This copied letter, in contrast apparently anonymous, has all the hallmarks of mere Hollywood-celeb type virtue signalling.

[kvasir]

This copied letter, in contrast apparently anonymous, has all the hallmarks of mere Hollywood-celeb type virtue signalling.

Hopefully Toby will be asking for your expulsion next. You are an idiot, a troll, that is incapable of recognizing the gravitas of this situation. Go back to your books, write a tirade, take a hike.

[admin]
This, I am sad to say, is clearly a violation of the TOS.
I am leaving it only as an example of how readily political discussions turn personal,
and I am hoping that such a negative example will guide other posters to proceed in a more constructive manner.
-JB
[/admin]

[HermanHiddema]

I'm not sure why the top and bottom were cut off, the full version can be seen at: https://www.reddit.com/r/baduk/comments ... emoval_of/

[mhlepore]

Imagine if we had requirement that visiting Chinese professionals condemn the Chinese government's actions in Xinjiang province.

It is easy to see where this goes. The war of forcing others to speak up or resign will inevitably affect all of us.

[RobertJasiek]

I would like to express my opinion here but the Forum Rules, in particular 1 and 2, are ambiguous.

[jlt]

Sorry if this created confusions, the letter was a pdf, I took a screenshot of the relevant part. I didn't think that Toby Manning's signature was important, as the letter was a seemingly decision of the BGA, not of its president as an individual. Also I didn't want to publish the handwritten signature of someone on a public forum.

[jlt]

I would like to express my opinion here but the Forum Rules, in particular 1 and 2, are ambiguous.

Are you referring to this part?

Religious, political, and sexual topics are not allowed.

Yes this topic is political, however it is still within the scope of this forum since it concerns the EGF executive and EGF member countries (see the letter above). Moderators may decide to close the topic if the discussion becomes, or has become, too political.

[Joaz Banbeck]

Yes this topic is political, however it is still within the scope of this forum since it concerns the EGF executive and EGF member countries...

Moderators may decide to close the topic if the discussion becomes, or has become, too political.

Speaking as an admin, I agree with both of these statements.

Actually, the rule against politics is not there because politics itself is an inherently problematic subject ( like sex is ) but it exists because of the near certainty that someone will break one of the other rules when discussing politics.

I would be happy to be proven wrong on this assumption.

[Joaz Banbeck]

This is a highly troubling letter.

...it is asking Russian go players...to risk their personal safety by publicly condemning appallingly ruthless authorities.

Speaking as a member and not as an admin, I agree with this. I'm amazed that the writer(s) of the letter could be so clueless.

A look at recent history might provide a good clue.

As many commentators have noted, this is the most state-sponsored violence we have seen in Europe since World War Two. And the parallels are scary: one country invades another while parroting dubious claims of national security and peace keeping. This leaves potential allies of the victim with two options - both of which are troublesome. ( Yes, I am implicitly discounting the alleged middle path of economic sanctions as little more than pearl clutching )

If the allies do nothing, the aggressor can gobble up the victim. If the allies decide to resort to military force to stop the invaders, they risk a world war with substantial losses on both sides.

Fortunately, the current allies are not yet forced to make this decision. They will be if/when Russian forces cross the border into Poland or any other NATO member.

The clue lies in what Western Europe and the US did prior to WWII, when the signs of impending war were becoming clear, but they were no yet forced to make a decision. In the 1930s, many immigrants were welcomed as they fled the increasingly dire situation in central and eastern Europe.

I'd like to see the BGA offer housing and relocation help to immigrating Russian and Ukrainian go players, particularly pros. This is actually a small enough task that it might be within the power of the BGA to do it.

[jlt]

Not sure they are clueless. Maybe their real intention was to exclude Russia from the EGF.

[kvasir]

Speaking as a member and not as an admin, I agree with this. I'm amazed that the writer(s) of the letter could be so clueless.

I am sorry if I violated the TOS, I am only angry that John and now you speak like this about Toby. Toby Manning is not clueless, seriously. I think you deserve some red colors too.

Toby's letter is not clueless. He is very well informed and is likely to get enough support to call the Special General Meeting. People who call the author clueless or the letter a Hollywood antic can do self-contemplation about what is happening in Europe, how this will affect themselves and their friends, family or anything they care about.

Some people might think this is not a defining moment in our lives but instead an opportunity for hot takes on the serious discussion that needs to take place in the EGF. I am at loss of TOS-safe words for this behavior. These light-hearted comments on this EGF business are also a strange tangent from my original message, I only hope this is because it was well said and didn't need an addendum but that is not for me to judge.

I already replied to Toby's letter in the right venue.

[Elom0]

NATO? What 'NATO'? That is the strangest definition of 'North Atlantic' I've ever seen . . .

There is a story of a tribe in Africa who, when one of them commits a fault, the very last thing they do is scold the person. Instead, they gather everyone in the community and start telling that person all the good thing they've done, reminding them that this bad thing they did is not representative of who they truly are, encouraging them to live up to their higher self. I mean even sorting behavior into 'good', or 'bad' is a way to ensure strife in your society, be it subternal or explicit, or at least hate other groups to distract yourself from the emotional void you think you shouldn't have, because you have a belief system that fills some voids. I absolutely abhor even telling children off, because I'm a strong believer that if you tell someone that they're a certain way, they're likely to believe it and start acting out that way And for children, it's four times more unforgivable, because one, it's twice as bad since no matter how much children may misbehave to you, they almost always actually want to follow their parents, and also other authorities, but especially their parents`. As everyone knows, children are more concerned about disappointing their parents or authority figures than even making them angry. The former implies much more the meaning of, 'you haven't lived upped to my expectations'. And if they can't be like their parents, they'll be like want they think their parents expect of them. Essentially, if my parent says I'm a this or that, that I'm a naughty child or I always do this bad thing, then the best way to live up to my parents' expectations is to continue doing this bad thing. The other doubler of badness is that children will absorb this conditioning twice as much as an adult, and then it will become ingrained in them and hard to change as an adult. Now, you may say, the parent can be extra mean when the child misbehaves. But this is the biggest danger to society of all, and the cause of Putin's war. I can say for a fact that no one taught 'morality' that way as a child truly believes in the moral principles they think they do from it, I mean adults believe it on a logical level, but they don't really internally believe in it, because it sends conflicting messages. My parents are setting the example of how to behave yet if I behave that way, I'm punished. Ah. So it's power I lack. It's not the behavior that's bad, but the fact that I'm behaving that way without Power. So what's most important in life is getting Power. So I should be nice with superiors, okay with equal, and a jerk to those whom I have more Power. This is the internal belief apparently were supposed to teach. Now there are cases in which an abused child is taught this so much that they basically only respect power politics, and you have to use a bit of your own to wean them of that belief, but in most cases, pure power politics is poison for a child and would-be-adult. Better is your my child so I expect you to do better or Ukrainians, you're my people so I expect you to not kill Russians who don't accept you leader through coup, not bad Ukraine. Now I'm going to bomb you into submission, actually, also invade your territory with troops to force you to stop being mean to Russians. Ah, that's better.

One main reason I might have one too many ideas is because I was actually brought up to have critical thinking, more so than most. Also, when someone says they're a free thinker, they're maybe not. They'd be too paranoid about possible ways they could actually be just parroting things to say that. Perhaps that's why many who argue against 'cancel' culture don't make as headway as expected--are we seen as hypocrites? As far as I am concerned, of course, kvasir and me and others being emotional about this is expected because people are being killed, and this is a perfect example of where forgiveness is.. I mean I have a lot to say on how the global paradigm on parenting encourages political division, state oppression, wars, and genocide, including this one, but I struggle to put all of those things cohesively enough, So I'll just mention what is simpler. Five years ago I'd probably be able to, though*.

This does not mean that 'cancel' culture or mindset are to be criticised only--but often the thing that actually causes the most danger is obsession with safety. I know this from experience--if I wasn't so obsessed with safety I'd be in a lot better position in my life right now.

And this applies in this situation too. 'Western' nations have been so preoccupied with securing the safety of as many of them as possible that it has actually caused a conflict. They've failed to understand the psychology of the Russian elites in certain important factors.

And maybe that might be said of Toby Manning. I mean, at the first few glances, it just seemed to me like the equivalent of placing a weak stone in your opponents moyou, then trying to save that weak stone but really only end up making the opponent stronger. I see here neither sabaki nor sacrifice that may be beneficial long term.

But then that might just be my perception. Maybe Toby Manning is employing an AI-level technique us mortals are yet to understand . . .

. . . Because it's been implied that Go in Russia is more similar to Go in east Asia than anywhere, the main point being government cultural involvement is relatively high compared to western countries. Maybe the British Go Association is actually trying to make things easier for her, not harder! On the belief that if the Russian Go federetion knew how difficult it is to look good condoning this way in front other EGF member states, that would make it's way to the ministry of sport, and then the elites of the Kremlin, and that would make it easier for her to show distaste towards the war. I still think it's a tad Goofy the Goose, though.

When it comes to misunderstanding Russian elites, this is most egregious in my view of all when it comes to the 'Former' intelligence official, Putin. It's like the west has one card they play for every type of despot or leader with over despotic or gangster thuggish tendencies, although those terms may describe America as well as Russia in many cases, and I don't say this in a judgmental way to either side, but just as strategic observation from the perspective of a go player. Putin sees NATO. Putin sees coup. Putin sees that those who don't accept the coup. For 8 years Russians in the rebel held area. They need a Hero, a bear-fighting innocent victim of the reckless NATO elites, to save them. And also fill up his bank account and those of his friends, of course.

As someone who plays go, employing go strategy, I think this: This is Putin's equivalent of the Iraq war. In fact perhaps he's outdone George Bush Jr here, from a strategic point of view, which is impressive. I am NOT making a politcal or moralistic point, but purely a strategic, military one. Of someone who reads the art of war hoping to improve their go skill. I'm questioning the means. But do the justify all the ends? maybe some. But see, many of the rationales for invading are identical, and it's going to turn out just as badly. If it was only limited to airstrikes and recognition of the areas the rebel groups controlled, it would have been a far more logical and far less destabilising situation. Russia sending ground troops into Ukraine was a red line, and while I really think that it's a strategic error to dangle NATO membership of Ukraine over Russia, crossing Russian red lines without good enough reason to do so (on the other hand, if there is a good enough reason to do so, you must cross a red line, but NATO membership in so many countries wasn't necessary), trying to play the tough-guy act, it is an equally bad mistake to, when the heat is really on, start acting wimpy when all the time you've been poking the bear. This just tells Putin that the way to get the west to respect you is to use force, because in reality nothing will make risk war with Russia no matter how immorally Russia behaves, but if Russia tries to show restraint, the west disrespects them. We have to tell Putin that this attempt to get less NATO through force is going to get more NATO--in other words, NATO should seek to maintain air superiority in parts of Ukraine with Russian troops. On the other hand, when Russia is not using force, we should take it more Seriously to stop the expansion of NATO into Eastern Europe. It is correct to reserve any ground troops for Taiwan, whose security is actually an even more effective deterrent to Russia long-term than Ukraine, simply because semi-conductors are literally one of the most time-consuming, supply-chain sensitive, difficult-to-start from scratch markets so that any existing companies you own that are in the second-highest most monopolised industry in the world. It would be like having an Island filled true the brim with commodities like gold and silver, and also rare-earth metals, saying, ah, actually, you what? We don't care. Not to mention South-straight china is a more justifiable democracy in that it hasn't come from a recent coup or has in recent times it's opposition members get jailed, unlike in Ukraine. Most of all, both cases the human toll is evil. Although in Ukraine their are . . . let's just say disturbing groups that unfortunately have sided with much of Ukrainian mainstream against Russia, even if the mainstream does not want to be affiliated with them. As Ioannis 'Yanis' Varoufakis says, don't give Russia more excuses to their own people, another strategic mistake.

That being said Now we're gonna get other smaller nations looking at a country that has denuclearising. Heaven knows what thy're thinking, but it's probably the kind of thoughts that bring hell on earth since denuclearised Ukraine's invasion follows denuclearised Libya's being under No Fly Zones.

I personally take the motto that I never complain about insults online, but I never insult online, at least not intentionally. It's similar to how I always allow undos, but never ask for undo's, even if I made an obvious misclick. Golly, I've 'misclicked', or rather misplaced, a stone in an over-the board match because I was so nervous More often than not when I've written in online comment sections, my take is normally so unique that even the most insult-ready keyboard warrior, who has been insulting every other person with a different opinion of theirs, just forgets to insult me. I'm almost sad about it, maybe I should follow KevinBB. 99% of the time insults are based not on you, but the group your percived to belong to, and because my opinions almost always without fail tend to wade both extremes; not sides, extremes; of the political spectrum, insulting me means insulting themselves. I'm like the untoxicable commenter. Think of the most toxic places you know on the internet and I'll clean up.


I'm sure Putin sees himself as the only one who can defend the Russian-speaking peoples from a possible genocide, that he's been failing them all these years. But at the same time, it would have made more sense to really reach out to the voices in Ukraine who do not want to oppress Russians. By resorting to authoritarian methods--force--now he's isolated even those against oppressing Russians in Ukraine from possibly being able to ally with him on this issue.

Let's take this back to the start of the post for a moment. If population sizes were smaller, we would have far more faith in 'humane'***, or rather, conscious ways of handing out law, than authoritarian unconsious ones. If there were more people on the forum, the probability that some. On the other hand, if a culture of civility is created when the community is small, then when it gets bigger, and it will--their are societal reasons for believing that Go will get significantly 'bigger' withing the next 30 years no matter what likely secnario occurs, although I'd say even within the next 10--then it would be easier to manage and, have the potential to much bigger and more profound as a group reliant on subjective enlightenment--we have pros for a reason.

By encouraging civility, soon people will completely give up trying to use politics to stoke tesion in L19, because people will know it's not possible with the L19 community. Ironically, in my view, I guess all that has to happen is for it to be more acceptable for Joaz to give his subjective feeling on whether someone is deliberately trying to stoke tensions, or if there just being a bit emotional and irrational and need to be reminded of their higher self-we have pros for a reason--than struggle to treat every scenario objectively, which is an unfairly difficult thing for all sides.

When people start learning that sometimes talk about contentious topics but in the most civil, uncontentious way, then more people will start . A rare occurrence of actual grown-ups on the internet, not kids in grown-up bodies pretending to be grown-ups while also somehow believing they have the spiritual esteem to do well in go. Then it would spread to the rest of the go community. Then the go community as whole would be known as a relatively civilised space, the kind of one were you want to take your kids too, or take the kind of people who wouldn't touch mindsticks with a polesticks because they'd like go events anyway after being disarmed by peoples civility and charm. This is the difference between relying on the strict hand of law, cultivated in large population, indifferent societies, and relying on subjective enlightenment, cultivated in small societies were where promotion of the good takes precedent and is more powerful than demonisation of the bad, I guess. Taking the risk ti make us safer overall? which is what NATO must do right now. Because there is a 1/3 chance Russia may go significantly beyond their stated aims, it's time to drop the cowardice.

If NATO let putin know that they are not scared of war with Russia, then that, in my view would gaurantee peace. If NATO wasn't scared of Russia before, resorting to expanding NATO to the point where it's the strangest definition of 'North Atlantic' I've ever seen, and instead decided, you know what, we're willing to defend countries oustide of our military alliance. It's literally relying on military alliances to defend countries that helped cause world war 1, in my view, not allowing nations to make nuanced decisions on when, who, and how to defend, and the west did this out of fear of Russia. I guess thing the to fear most is fear itself, as the ultimate wimpy scaredy-cat myself, I should know. Obligations to military defense make sense in the case of Taiwan****, yet that is the one case the west decides not too, not even offering one to the ROC-controlled China. It's upside down.

Whatever one's opinions are on these things, as someone who plays go, or at least watches people play go, the Americo-European Strategic approach could be improved to avoid more bloodshed.

`If I ever take care of non-blood related children, be it adopted or foster, I wouldn't have the gallbladder to even suggest to any child I adopt. I'll make it crystal clear to them that they are the ones to decide if I'm a dad, I'm simply a servant to them that teaches them how to behave, that's it. Otherwise, it's the same thing as telling a child that their physical autonomy isn't important, and we all know the kinds of problems that can cause later in life. Worst is when a foster parent--literally being paid by the government just to take care of them, so they're more like nannies--expected to be called dad, mum. I wouldn't be surprised if that has a bad psychological effect on orphans. Forced familiarity may have the opposite effect, anyway. If the child had certain bad influences in their life that made them feel force was all that matter and the only way to be respected is to be more. But generally, the rule is let the child choose from an option of possible rules and then employ those. A way to embrace disipline while completely rejecting authoriarianism so we don't end up in messes like the one today.

*(although I didn't have as many of these abstract ideas, Although I'll mention one of those few original ones from five years ago I haven't mentioned before soon enough).

**We buy into this macho, hollywood mentality of fighting evil in which all is fair in love, war, and showing how toxic the other person is, but never me, though. Or a Putinistic mentality of always seeing oneself only as the victim, so there's no way I'm being over-the-top in my response.

***As an anthroskeptic I really reject this term, though.

****because maintaining strategic equality between different groups in a civil war should be preferred western strategy, to encourage dialogue between the two groups, like they do with countries, rather than what the western strategy has been so far of picking which terrorist group you want to support. I mean if the neo-Nazi's in Ukraine were continuously condemned by NATO Putin would have had less reason to respond

Hopefully, this should be the last politics-related post I make in a while, well at least long-post at least, since the stated aim is supposedly just to disarm Ukraine. Sadly, since they said they were not fully honest about invading Ukraine or at least minds were changed from don't to do, it's still a 1/3 chance they might, which again, is enough to justify sending not NATO troops, but NATO air superiority.

[PMyricest]

The EGF is constitutionally apolitical, so it does feel difficult to validate such objectives. One should remember however, the directions in which flows the EGF budget. It does seem perfectly reasonable to demand changes in relation to that. The chess situation is much worse, their president currently being blessed by Putin and Pontious Pilate. Some may view the BGA letter as shabby symbolism, but perhaps it is, shortly, of better fit.

By the way it is already visible that the UK is refusing refugees, this is quite probably not in line with BGA membership politics.

Let's hope our two Ukranian professionals are not yet dead.