Japanese Title and League scene

[CDavis7M]

I was wondering about this also. I have assumed from talk (around here/sensei) that Kisei is considered the top title. So then I wondered, is it really? I read some news articles on the recent kisei match, which led nowhere. Then I looked at the list of title holders in Monthly Go World, the order Iyama's titles are listed in, and the Nihon Kiin's "small encyclopedia of terms."

Go World lists the order as Kisei, Meijin, then Honinbo (according to payout) and this is how they are ordered in Iyama's (old) list of titles on the web and in Go World. The encyclopedia reminded me that Kisei, Honinbo, and Meijin are all "fake" titles at this point anyway. But going back to the original titles, all of the Kisei happened to be Honinbo, but only a few of the Honinbo were Kisei. And the Meijin would be in charge of Honinbo and the other houses. And there are far fewer Kisei than Meijin. So I'd say that the current prestige and prize money matches the ancient prestige: Kisei > Meijin > Honinbo, even though Honinbo is the longest running tournament.

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By the way, how is Ichiriki Kisei doing in the other tournaments?
Honinbo: 4-1 against Yo Seiki's 6-0.
Gosei: He beat Hane Naoki in the league. He's up against Kyo Kagen next with 2 more rounds after that. Yo Seiki is still in and up against Ida Atsushi next.
Meijin: 2-2 (lost to Shibano and Yo). Yo is 3-1 (beat Kyo and Ichiriki but lost to Hane).
Oza: Ichiriki is seeded as a finalist (lost to Iyama, who took the Oza from Shibano). Yo Seiki is still in qualifying and up against Onishi Ryuhei next.
Tengen: He won the first round of the final qualifying rounds. Yo Seiki lost to Cho U.
Judan: too far away. I think he will be seeded into qualifying section A.

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Anyway, I am following Yo Seiki now.

[Ferran]

We need a Godokoro title. That would make it clear...

Take care

[CDavis7M]

The Pandanet commentary (in Japanese) on the Judan tournament has been published as SGF and HTML.

Game 1 commentary by (SGF)

Game 2 commentary by Murakawa Daisuke (SGF)

More 60th Judan articles from the sponsor Sankei News: https://www.sankei.com/tag/topic/life_4/

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By the way, one of the preliminary articles by Sankei News on the Judan title match mentioned that this match was between Taiwanese players, which has happened 3 times before. I'll give two writings ;]

• 56th Honinbo (2001) O Meien (Wang Mingyuan) defended against Cho U (Zhang Xu)
• 51st Oza (2003) O Meien lost the title to Cho U.
• 42nd Judan (2004) O Rissei (Wang Licheng) defended against Cho U.

[Ferran]

Game 2 commentary by Murakawa Daisuke (SGF)

I thought Pandanet was a Nihon Kiin area... The Kiin ... glasnost? is powerful

Take care.

[kvasir]

I thought Pandanet was a Nihon Kiin area... The Kiin ... glasnost? is powerful

They have a lot of Kansai Kiin related content these days and are advertised on the Kansai Kiin webpage, but there are also Nihon Kiin pros featured (there are certain usual suspects), they also seem to have tried to offer lessons by strong European players, and sometimes it was possible to buy content in English and sign up to play handicap games with professionals for a small fee. You maybe know but many don't know that Pandanet is one of the most loyal and generous sponsor of Go in Europe and America and has been so for a long time.

Basically, it is not unusual to see something from either kiin on Pandanet.

[pajaro]

Today, Motoki Katsuya 8-dan beat Shibano Toramaru 9-dan in the Meijin league.

This is quite a surprising result. Motoki has been doing very bad lately. He was demoted 1-6 in the Honinbo league, and was 0-4 in this Meijin league. Shibano was 3-0, so the expected result was Shibano would win. But no.

Motoki is still 1-4 and has the worst record. But Shibano, 3-1 now, has lost the lead and now is even with Yo Seiki. They have yet to play each other, and if you remember, Yo Seiki lost to Shibano in the last game of the Honinbo league. After that loss, a play-off with Ichiriki and good bye to the challenge.

[CDavis7M]

I watched the beginning of game 3 in the Judan match but only saw the results now. Kyo Kagen shut out Yo Seiki. Too bad because I was really hoping that Yo Seiki would do well. At least push it to game 4 or 5.

We know they are both Taiwanese. But my impression from the Sankei News articles, which were a bit hard for me to follow, is that these two were friends and studied together before Yo Seiki challenged the Judan. But now they don't and Kyo mentioned Yo as a "rival." Kind of a bummer to lose a study buddy on your way to the top.

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The word "rival" was used and it sounds a bit funny to me. "Rival" reminds me of an interview that Ichiriki Ryo did in English with Tom Urasoe of Nihon Kiin overseas. Tom Urasoe straight up asked Ichiriki if he considered Iyama Yuta his "rival." Ichiriki gave a slightly nervous laugh and said "No. Respected person." Which must be a direct translation. Iyama is a Titan of go so maybe Ichiriki is just giving him the respect he deserves, whereas Yo and Kyo were friends first.

Another funny point in that interview comes after Ichiriki gives advice to amateur players on how to improve: "play many games." Our friend Tom asks the real questions: "How many games were you playing as a kid before you became pro, maximum a day?" Ichiriki thinks on it and has no answer but ends up agreeing with Tom's prompt --
"Countless."
"Countless."
"Twenty games?"
"Yeah."

But surely little Ichiriki had racked up 100+ games in a day with so much time on his hands. I think he was just too embarrassed to say it.

[CDavis7M]

It's been quiet. We lost one or two big title matches in April because Kyo Kagen shut down Yo Seiki early.

Next is Ichiriki Ryo challenging "26th Honinbo Monyu" Iyama Yuta on May 10 and 11 at a shrine wedding venue. That should be nice compared to the rugby stadium they are playing Game 2 at. Iyama has 10 consecutive wins matching 25th Honinbo Cho Chikun's 10, though Cho also has a couple of earlier wins. I wonder if Iyama has any special devotion to the Honinbo tournament. I also wonder whether Ichiriki is content to take the Kisei or if he is driven to become the top player -- live up to the newspaper hype.

Anyone taking bets?

I'm rooting for Iyama

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By the way, somewhere here it was discussed which titles were more important and I looked at the Nihon Kiin website and magazine and suspected the Kisei was top (highest payout). I just noticed that the magazine listing of players by rank has Kisei listed as the top "rank" before the other titles, which are before 9 dans.

[kvasir]

Takao Shinji beat Iyama Yuta in the Kisei S league today and did so rather convincingly. I think it was the first game in the S league this year.

It was even until about move 110 but after that (and judging with computer) it was easier to play as black and Takao soon had a big lead after solving the tactical puzzles. It is possible that Iyama was in time trouble at the crucial moment because they had been going at it for almost 9h 40m hours at move 144 but then Iyama style seems to be to go out with a bang.

[CDavis7M]

Takao Shinji beat Iyama Yuta in the Kisei S league today and did so rather convincingly. I think it was the first game in the S league this year.

I see it on Fox. That was a wild game. That was the first of five games in S League. Takao Shinji always seems to make it to the final rounds of tournaments but I don't think he's challenged one in the past few years. Though Takao did take the Meijin title away from Iyama back in 2016... was that Takao taking away Iyama's 7th title?

By the way, Takao Shinji is scheduled to give commentary on the game 1 of the Honinbo title match.

Bigger tangent, Takao Shinji has a blog and he mentioned that he has the same birthday as Ueno Asami.

[Ferran]

Next is Ichiriki Ryo challenging "26th Honinbo Monyu" Iyama Yuta on May 10 and 11 at a shrine wedding venue. That should be nice compared to the rugby stadium they are playing Game 2 at. Iyama has 10 consecutive wins matching 25th Honinbo Cho Chikun's 10,

When he won the Honinbo title for the fifth year in a row this year, Iyama Yuta qualified for the title of eternal Honinbo, though he can use it only after he turns 60 or retires, whichever comes first.(source)

Which you may already know, but just in case it confuses someone.

Take care.

[pajaro]

When he won the Honinbo title for the fifth year in a row this year, Iyama Yuta qualified for the title of eternal Honinbo, though he can use it only after he turns 60 or retires, whichever comes first.(source)

Which you may already know, but just in case it confuses someone.

Really?

Cho Chikun is the 25th Honinbo. He was born in 1956. In this video, that many of you may know

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-Y1p2ZQDq0&t=38s

he is introduced as the 25th Honinbo. This video was posted in youtube in August 5th, 2015. So he was 59. Perhaps 58 (I don't know the date of the game). And not retired.

Couldn't he really use the title? Did NHK make a mistake? Am I making a mistake?

[pajaro]

When he won the Honinbo title for the fifth year in a row this year, Iyama Yuta qualified for the title of eternal Honinbo, though he can use it only after he turns 60 or retires, whichever comes first.(source)

Which you may already know, but just in case it confuses someone.

Really?

Cho Chikun is the 25th Honinbo. He was born in 1956. In this video, that many of you may know

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-Y1p2ZQDq0&t=38s

he is introduced as the 25th Honinbo. This video was posted in youtube in August 5th, 2015. So he was 59. Perhaps 58 (I don't know the date of the game). And not retired.

Couldn't he really use the title? Did NHK make a mistake? Am I making a mistake?

I am going to answer myself.

To be called Honorary "something", you have to win "something" 5 times in a row or 10 times overall, and wait for retirement or turning 60. That was the case with Iyama winning his 5th Honinbo in 2016 (the date of John Power's article in the link).

BUT you can also win "something" 10 times in a row. In that case, you are Honorary "something" immediately. That's why Cho Chikun could already be called 25th Honinbo before turning 60, and Iyama is already the 26th Honinbo.

In the future, Iyama will also be Honorary "many things". And, if he had beaten Ichiriki in the Kisei, he would also be Honorary Kisei now.

Was this extra pressure this year? Only he knows.

[John Fairbairn]

There is no Honorary Honinbo as such (i.e. no Meiyo Honinbo). Cho is the 25th-generation Honinbo (i.e. lifetime Honinbo). This is a practice go copied from shogi, where they had Lifetime Meijins (Sekine sold out to the newspapers earlier than Shusai sold out, so shogi leads in a few such respects).

Other titles can be honorary) (meiyo) but the details depend on the sponsor. The Honinbo and Meijin titles were the only ones sold to the Nihon Ki-in by Shusai. The rest are whatever the sponsor chooses. The crucial point is that they usually attract a pension. It is that which is deferred until retirement (or retirement age).

In the case of the the Honinbo, the decision to create the special generational title was announced by the sponsor (Mainichi Shinbun), not the Ki-in, on 30 August 1956 at the accession ceremony for the 11th Honinbo, where Takagawa had just recorded his fifth successive victory. They also announced then that the same accolade would be given in future for five successive Honinbo-title wins. At that time the Honinbo was still the main title.

In shogi, Kimura Yoshio had already qualified for the Lifetime Meijin title in 1946, though he couldn't strictly use it until he retired in 1952. He had first won the Meijinship in 1937, being the first to be a Meijin as the result of playing in a tournament. The first Honinbo tournament was not completed until 1941. The go Meijin title was meanwhile being cannily kept under wraps.

Some sgf compilers put 25th Honinbo or Meijin etc under WR or BR, which is strictly for rank not title. Cho's rank at the Nihon Ki-in is still 9-dan.

[CDavis7M]

Which you may already know, but just in case it confuses someone.

I had read that on Sensei's but I used the Honinbo name because the newspaper was using the name. There is an interview with Iyama and Cho and their Honinbo titles are given (Cho did it the smart but less fun way). https://mainichi.jp/articles/20220308/d ... 40/008000c

Looking again at the rule in the Power Report, just because Iyama cannot call himself Monyu (I doubt he even would), there is no rule that other people cannot call him that.

I just wonder if the extra pomp for the Honinbo means anything to the players.
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By the way, the Power Report that was linked also mentions Takao winning against Iyama in the Meijin which I mentioned earlier. John Power does mention Iyama's seven titles in a later report.
https://www.usgo.org/news/2016/11/the-p ... -monopoly/