Path to 9Dan, step by step.

[hl782]

Attached are 2 games. My promo game to 4D, and my first game as a 5D.
I did a quick self review on the 5D game, as that was a loss. Enjoy.

Promo Game


5D Game, Loss

[hl782]

I've finished the first read through (of many I would presume), of the 2nd volume of the Fujisawa Shuko tesuji dictionary.

I really can't emphasize enough -- every dan level player should read these books.

[hl782]

I am currently 10-5 as a Tygem 5D. Here are 3Ws (with not much review) that you guys can observe for fun.

I'll attach a detailed review of a very close loss vs a 6D later today.

Game 1


Game 2


Game 3 - This is my favorite of the 3.

[hl782]

Also, an interesting conversation I had with my friend Justin Teng... how does one measure talent in go?

Assuming one starts at a young age (below than 25), is there a ceiling in how high of a rank a player can achieve?

Justin thinks that anyone can get to 8-9D Tygem/Fox with effort. I think that's a huge overestimation on his part.

I think that anyone in go should be able to reach the 4-5Kyu mark by via self-study.
Without talent, I do believe that 4-5K will be a plateau for many.

I also think that if someone can get to past the 1-2D levels via self-study, then the person should be able to get to ~7D+ by themselves as well.

Would be interested in hearing what other's opinions on this are.

[gennan]

I think that anyone in go should be able to reach the 4-5Kyu mark by via self-study.
Without talent, I do believe that 4-5K will be a plateau for many.

I also think that if someone can get to past the 1-2D levels via self-study, then the person should be able to get to ~7D+ by themselves as well.

Would be interested in hearing what other's opinions on this are.

I suppose these are all Tygem ranks you are using here?

I don't know Tygem ranks very well, but I do know EGF ranks and I heard that Tygem ranks are about 4 ranks softer than EGF ranks (at least up to about Tygem 6-7d/EGF 3d).

So translating to EGF ranks: yes, 9k EGF can be reached by many people if they put in some amount of effort, talented or not. Via self study, 4-5k EGF seems reachable as well eventually.

But I have doubts about your final step: if someone can reach 4-5k EGF, you assume that they can reach 3d EGF as well. This seems like a stretch to me. Some 4-5k EGF will reach 3d EGF, but if they took many years to reach 4-5k EGF, IME it is quite unlikely they will reach 3d EGF in their lifetime. If they reached 4-5k EGF in a year or less (like you did in 2015), then yes, they may reach mid dan EGF eventually.

[hl782]

Actually, for the Kyu ranks I was referring to KGS. I started on KGS and went through the Kyus before moving over to Tygem. I remember I was doing alright vs 2-3Ds on KGS while playing against 4Ds on Tygem, so I’d imagine I’m around a 3D on KGS now.

I think if anyone can break 3D on Tygem or 1D on KGS (which is closer to EGF), they should be able to hit 7D+ on KGS/Tygem/Fox/EGF (honestly at that point the players are relatively similar imo despite the server/algorithm differences)

If this is the case, I wonder what’s blocking people from improving? What is the difference between the dan players vs those who stay as permanent kyus?

[Kirby]

I agree with Justin - I think people can get to 8-9d Fox or Tygem with effort. But it's purely hypothetical, because most people won't give the effort to come close. For a lot of people, getting to that rank means saying "no" to many other things in life. You can't play go casually or study a couple of hours a day and expect that kind of result. You'd have to eat into family time, other hobbies, time wasted on the internet, and going out to see friends.

It's not worth it - not by a long short for most people.

So yeah, I think that in theory people "could" get to that rank. But they won't. We all die someday, and most people don't value go enough to spend all of their time on it.

I think I saw on zchen's KGS profile once something to the effect of, "You get what you want in life". I mostly agree - at least with the things you have control over.

[jlt]

When I participate in competitions (mainly in France), I sometimes look at profile pages of other players, and at every level between EGF 9k and 8d I see people who have been stuck there for years despite participating in many competitions. So there is no level x such that if you passed x then you can reach x+5 or something. This is not specific to go but also applies in other games, sports, music, math, foreign language, or whatever other activity that requires years of practice.

Limiting factors in go are:

• Starting age: the younger the better.
• Talent: some people are able to memorize games, life and death positions, josekis,... easily. Other people study a sequence and forget it the next week.
• Willingness to change bad habits and to put in effort at each game or at each go problem.
• Willingness and ability to detect mistakes and to correct them.
• Time.

[gennan]

I think if anyone can break 3D on Tygem or 1D on KGS (which is closer to EGF), they should be able to hit 7D+ on KGS/Tygem/Fox/EGF (honestly at that point the players are relatively similar imo despite the server/algorithm differences)

Dwyrin is 5d AGA (which I assume is about 4d EGF) and he is 7d on Tygem. He may serve as a indicator for rank comparison between those different platforms.

The difference between 4d EGF (7d on Tygem) and 7d EGF is quite significant IME.
Lumping all those 7d+ players from different platforms together in one group doesn't do justice to the significant and nearly unsurmountable 3-4 stone gap between 4d EGF (fairly strong amateur) and 7d EGF (very strong amateur / "weak" pro).
I think the gap between 4d EGF and 7d EGF is even several times bigger than the gap between 1d EGF and 4d EGF, in terms of the amount of effort required to cross those gaps.

You can see evidence of that in the number of active players per rank in the EGD (the EGF rating database):

8d EGF: ~5 players (including some 2p+ EGF pros)
7d EGF: ~15 players (including some 1p EGF pros)
6d EGF: ~40 players
5d EGF: ~90 players
4d EGF: ~150 players
3d EGF: ~200 players
2d EGF: ~240 players
1d EGF: ~270 players

The ratio between number of players of different levels gives an indication of how difficult it is to pass the barrier in between, how strong of a filter that barrier is.
It may give an indication of how much time it takes to pass the filter above, compared to how much time it takes to pass the filter below.

Now note that there are 10 times more 4d EGF players than 7d EGF players, while there are only 2 times more 1d EGF players than 4d EGF players.
So the filter to pass through when going from 4d EGF to 7d EGF is much tougher than the filter to pass through when going from 1d EGF to 4d EGF.
That's why it seems odd to me to consider 4d EGF "similar" to 7d EGF.

Perhaps you feel that way because the barrier you're facing now is the greatest of all the barriers you've faced until now.
But I think it might wishful thinking that your current barrier is the greatest barrier of them all, including barriers further ahead.

[hl782]

Idk if I am facing a barrier at the moment. I feel like I’ll reach 8-9D at some point in my life at the pace that I’m going. I actually disagree with your assessment of the EGF ranks because I’ve seen very strong amateurs beat the weak pros numerous times. And I think at that point it’s just a matter of 1 move being more efficient than the other.

I don’t think it’s a good analysis to equate how “hard” it might be to pass a rank to skill imo. There are so many external factors outside of go contributing to person’s ability to move up from their current ranks.

I would honestly imagine that at a certain point, one might not feel a need to improve their games anymore? As a ridiculously strong amateur in a very niche game, an EGF 4 dan probably has everything to enjoy the game for life, and then some more.

[Kirby]

I would honestly imagine that at a certain point, one might not feel a need to improve their games anymore? As a ridiculously strong amateur in a very niche game, an EGF 4 dan probably has everything to enjoy the game for life, and then some more.

I agree with this. I am not even EGF 4 dan, but I still have a hard time finding a motivation to try to improve. The only thing I can think of is to pursue the intrinsic value of enjoying the game itself. But that reason alone isn't very motivating at times when I'm not in the mood to play or study.

At least when I started out, "being a dan player" was a nice long term goal. I could look to that goal when I didn't feel like studying or playing, and it would give me some extra motivation.

It's hard to have the same feeling now. I get some pleasure, I guess, when I do tsumego problems. But it's kind of similar to the pleasure I get from doing Wordle or maybe some math problems for fun: I don't have an underlying goal or motivation I am trying to pursue.

As a result, I practice or play while it feels fun. After that, I don't. I could try to do more, but without another goal, what's the point?

[jlt]

Looking at EGD graphs of some European pros (I didn't check everyone),

• Stanislaw Frejlak became 1d in 2008, 4d in 2012, 7d in 2018
• Ilya Shikshin became 1d in 2000, 4d in 2001, 7d in 2006
• Ali Jabarin became 1d in 2007, 4d in 2008, 7d in 2014
• Andrii Kravets became 1d in 2002, 4d in 2006, 7d in 2015
• Artem Kachanovskyi became 1d in 2005, 4d in 2007, 7d in 2010
• Mateusz Surma became 1d in 2006, 4d in 2008, 7d in 2014.

[remotecontrol]

Currently 3d tygem, 1d igs and barely 1d egf here.

It seems when playing people who are stuck at 3-5kyu it's because they can't improve their reading/calculation.

I know the path for myself is to keep getting better at tsumego/tesuji, when putting in serious effort I notice very real improvement in speed, accuracy, depth etc.

But when I think about playing a game on 19x19, I often get the feeling I don't have a clue how to play, almost like a beginner. Which is probably true, as my fundamentals are still weak. I'm trying to learn how to play a thick game.

Not sure if breaking >2d egf will lead to 5-6dan egf.

I think there are also natural temperament and emotional factors that stop people progressing. I sometimes have a won game and lose focus in the endgame for instance.

[hl782]

Finished Fujisawa Tesuji Dictionary Volume 3

Somewhat rough stretch at 5D, blew my chance at a promotion. Normalizing though!

[Elom0]

As a ridiculously strong amateur in a very niche game, an EGF 4 dan probably has everything to enjoy the game for life, and then some more.

８？ Not that it matters . . .