Professional kyu

[Ferran]

I was checking Cho Chikun's earliest games, mostly with handicap and something came up. If there's something that doesn't match, my apologies. I'm using some files extracted from the Summer 2012 GoGo[C]D and a partial check with the Feb'22 download; I might miss some update.

That said, Cho Chikun seems to leave Korea somewhere between 1k and 1d (he actually seems to go DOWN a grade), then he reaches Japan. I have no rank for his games as Mitani's Uchi deshi, but he joins the insei league, apparently, as a 3k.

Now, I seem to recall having read that somewhere (Go World?), but... should I assume that low-digit kyu in the insei system are somehow equivalent to mid-high level amateur dan? Was that consistent in time?

Somehow related... Professional handicap games. That I know of, there's a book through Utopian on pro handicap, and some games peppered along Go World (the Sekiyama-Michi series comes to mind), plus some odd games in the big books (Invincible; Itinéraire d'un maître de Go), but there's not much more, is there? Does anyone know of more sources for commented pro handicap games?

Thanks. Take care

[kvasir]

Just using Google translate but Japanese wikipedia says that he became insei when he was seven. That he beat Rin Kaiho with five(?) stones at some occasion. That he didn't know any Japanese when he came to Japan but learned quickly but dropped out of schools and played pranks(?) on people. He didn't apply himself in the insei program or in school in general and never qualified for the final professional qualification tournament until the time he became pro when he was eleven. Interestingly, it is a rather different account from those I have seen in English but it does cite its sources (even English wikipedia doesn't cite sources for the more interesting parts).

European 1 dan is already a lot for a seven year old, possibly Cho Chikun was stronger than that in some settings but if not then the unusual things are that he was by far the youngest kid to ever have entered the insei program at the time and clearly became much stronger very quickly. Basically, the insei program is a school that has as its goal to take students from their current level to a level that is close to professional level. It isn't very tightly connected to a perception of the prospective insei's rank, they goal is that they become much stronger.

Japanese wikipedia appears to claim that Kitani's dojo avoided to force their students to study. Maybe this is one aspects of its success (another aspect is that it had many students) and Cho Chikun may have used his time as insei very well despite outward appearances (or my impression from Google translating Japanese wikipedia). Before, the youngest insei was thirteen but Cho entering at seven, became pro before he was twelve.

[CDavis7M]

Somehow related... Professional handicap games. That I know of, there's a book through Utopian on pro handicap, and some games peppered along Go World (the Sekiyama-Michi series comes to mind), plus some odd games in the big books (Invincible; Itinéraire d'un maître de Go), but there's not much more, is there? Does anyone know of more sources for commented pro handicap games?

Glad to see someone else interested. I wish there were more handicap games in recent days because it really does change the game play. And being a fan of historic matches too some of the discussion that is most interesting to me is when the players play solidly or make overplays to account for the handicap. Here are some of my books with handicap game commentary:

Honinbo Shuho's book Hoen Shinpo (Translated by John Fairbarn under the title "News Ways in Go", available on GoBooks). There are 4, 3, and 2 stone openings with brief commentary by Honinbo Shuho. I'd have to read it again but my memory is that these games are against his students (so maybe related to the "professional kyu" discussion). This book is also really neat because it has 10 game commentaries against Honinbo Shuwa (no komi handicap) and also against Honinbo Shusaku (no komi handicap). There is an appendix (#2) with even more handicap games (5, 4, 3 and 2 stones), but without commentary. This is such a good little book I printed out many of the pages stufy. Maybe silly but I studied the 4 stone games on a board at least 3 or 4 times each as preparation for playing handicap games myself.

Elementary Go Series Volume 7 "Handicap Go" by Nagahara Yoshiaki and Richard Bozulich. Chapter 4 is example games and it has a 3-stone game between Honinbo Shusai and Hashimoto Utaro (3-dan), wow! What a tough spot. It also has a 4-stone game between Nagahara (the author) and an amateur, a 4-stone game between Kitani Minoru and his disciple, and an amateur game following the strategies given earlier in the book.


As for others, if you have Ogawa Doteki, Go Prodigy, the first game is 2 stones. Games of Shuei has so many games (and Sheui was so strong) that some of the games are with handicap stones, but it's not a ton. Just a quick skim: Game 93, 108 have Hirose Heijiro with 2 stone, Game 95 2 stones, Games 96, 98, 99, 101, 103, 104, 105, 107, 111 and more have Karigane Junichi with 2 stones. And there are more I missed. Plus some no-komi handicap games between.

Well, I think that's enough searching for now.

[tundra]

This may not be so easy to find anymore, but at one time Slate and Shell published a two-volume set, called "Masterpieces of Handicap Go", by Robert McGuigan. It may not be exactly what you are looking for, but from the descriptions and comments below, people seemed pleased with the two books:

Senseis Library:
https://senseis.xmp.net/?MasterpiecesOfHandicapGo
David Carleton's Review:
https://www.gobooks.info/ssaga01.html
John Tilley (a post here, on L19x19, from 2017):
https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=14415

[Ferran]

Glad to see someone else interested. I wish there were more handicap games in recent days because it really does change the game play. And being a fan of historic matches too some of the discussion that is most interesting to me is when the players play solidly or make overplays to account for the handicap. Here are some of my books with handicap game commentary:

I do like historic Go. Your comment about changing the gameplay is exactly the reason I'm not fond of handicap Go, specially above 3 stones: if one of the logics is that it's a learning aid, you don't learn to approach corners if you already have them all.

Honinbo Shuho's book Hoen Shinpo

I have the one on GoGoD, yes. I also have Nagahara's and the one that mixes handicap and sanrensei (roadmap to shodan series). Plus, sure, the ones here and there in pro books, as I mentioned.

I'm still unsatisfied, though. In many of those history books, the focus doesn't seem to be geared towards kyu players. The level of explanation of, say, a 4-stone game with Shûsaku, is the same as his oshirogo games.

Also... Well, last book I got was Kita Fumiko's (the one ON her, not BY her). And I sorely missed some of her games (if I'm checking things right, GoGoD has several more games against Shuei). I know Mr. Fairbairn is very conscious of the impact of page count on price, but... I still miss those. I also think it'd have been a great opportunity to include some of Hayashi Sano's games; GoGoD even has a 3H against Shuho.

It's... quirky. For several reasons, I haven't been able to dedicate anywhere near as much time to Go as it needs, for <u>decades</u>, so I'm sort of an eternal beginner. But, well, I've been around for those very same decades. And some advice repeats itself. Play handicap games, pick the games you review carefully. Some people point to reviewing handicap games and Takagawa's.

Almost by definition, you have more beginners than veterans. And yet... I can find scores of reviews of AlphaGo, some of them specifically geared towards DDK. It's hard to find commented handicaps (<u>specially</u> comments geared towards DDK) or Takagawa.

@tundra, I'll put those two on the list. Long ago, I became wary of S&S, and I didn't start valuing them until they became mostly unavailable.

Which, now that I'm at it, I fail to see why some publishers don't put their old books on amazon-PoD, assuming they still have the rights.

Anyhow, thanks to both of you. Take care

[gowan]

[quote="tundra"]This may not be so easy to find anymore, but at one time Slate and Shell published a two-volume set, called "Masterpieces of Handicap Go", by Robert McGuigan. It may not be exactly what you are looking for, but from the descriptions and comments below, people seemed pleased with the two books:

Senseis Library:
https://senseis.xmp.net/?MasterpiecesOfHandicapGo
David Carleton's Review:
https://www.gobooks.info/ssaga01.html
John Tilley (a post here, on L19x19, from 2017):
https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=14415[/quote

These two volumes have many commented handicap games between pros or between sensei and deshi. AS for handicap games in dojos between dehis, beginning deshis might start at 6-kyu. And took handicaps as though the sensei was dan ranked, one handicap stone for each rank difference. In the books mentioned above there is a six stone game between Ishida Yoshio and Kitani played when Ishida was ten years old, and Ishida's rank in the dojo was six kyu. WHether and how frequently deshis played with their sensei varied. Often a deshi played a game when entering as a student and a second game as a farewell when the student graduated. Another game in the books is a five stone game between Kato Masao and Kitani played when Kato was twelve years old. Kato said it was the only game he played with his master. Again is a four stone game between Takemiya Masaki (age 12) and his teacher Tanaka Minaichi (8-dan). Takemiya played numerous games with Tanaka, working down the handicap. This game was his promotion game from four stones to three.

These two books were originally published on paper by Slate and Shell and later electronically via GoBooks. It might be possible to find the paper books via a used book search.

[CDavis7M]

With great foresight Fairbairn's new book Go in Old Okinawa features handicap games with the first two games being 4 stone games against Dosaku. The commentary is aggregated from pros with occasional quotes.

[gowan]

Regarding pro-pro handicap go, we should not forget that before the founding of the Nihon Ki-in and other similar institutions and the use of komi in professional tournaments in the first part of the 20th century, most pro-pro games had handicaps. Even until the change in the pro promotion tournament more recently, handicaps were used in the promotion tournament. Furthermore, Go Seigen's famous Juubango matches were played without komi (uchikomi).

[xela]

Does anyone know of more sources for commented pro handicap games?

If you can find a copy, Kage's secret chronicles of handicap go is a lot of fun. It's two evenly matched pros playing with handicaps that are clearly too big, so that black wins every game, but the commentary is oriented towards what kyu players can learn about attacking technique and fighting spirit, mixed in with some entertaining banter.

[Shenoute]

Somehow related... Professional handicap games. That I know of, there's a book through Utopian on pro handicap, and some games peppered along Go World (the Sekiyama-Michi series comes to mind), plus some odd games in the big books (Invincible; Itinéraire d'un maître de Go), but there's not much more, is there? Does anyone know of more sources for commented pro handicap games?

There is a whole lot of pro-ama commented handicap games in the Go Review. One, but sometimes more, in virtually every issue. The ama players range from 5k (9 stones) to top level amateurs (2-stone games). There is also a very generous serving of strong ama-ama games commented by pro players.

I made a list of them and had planned on posting an index, similar to what I did here for pro games but it takes a long time and I figured not many would be interested. Maybe I'll get to it in the near future.

There are some interesting series I'd like to work through. For instance, Kitani against some of his pupils (including a 1962 game against Cho Chikun) and games by the first western pro player Manfred Wimmer (playing on 3-4 stones usually).

edit. I was actually gone further along the way than I remembered, so I've posted a list of pro-ama games, imperfect as it is, in the Go Review Archive Index thread.

[gowan]

In the early 1980's in Japan I bought a two-volume set of commented pro vs. pro handicap games, Pro vs Pro Actual handicap Games, ( プロ 対 プロ 置碁実戦譜 ) published by Sankaido. There are games at hndicaps from two stones to nine stones, e.g a seven stone game between Miyamoto 9-dan and Shiraishi 9-dane, a three stone game between Hashimoto Shoji 9-dan and Sakata 9-dan) The pros took these games fairly seriously. Since Black was certain to win, the goal for White seems to have been to try to reduce the size of the loss; Fujisawa Hideyuki 9-dan, playing white against Miyamoto 8-dan in a six stone game, lost by only 52 points. Unfortunately these books are in Japanese and out of print but they might be found at a used book store in Japan.

[Shenoute]

In the early 1980's in Japan I bought a two-volume set of commented pro vs. pro handicap games, Pro vs Pro Actual handicap Games, ( プロ 対 プロ 置碁実戦譜 ) published by Sankaido. There are games at hndicaps from two stones to nine stones, e.g a seven stone game between Miyamoto 9-dan and Shiraishi 9-dane, a three stone game between Hashimoto Shoji 9-dan and Sakata 9-dan) The pros took these games fairly seriously. Since Black was certain to win, the goal for White seems to have been to try to reduce the size of the loss; Fujisawa Hideyuki 9-dan, playing white against Miyamoto 8-dan in a six stone game, lost by only 52 points. Unfortunately these books are in Japanese and out of print but they might be found at a used book store in Japan.

It seems six of these game were published in the English Go Review, in the series "Pro-pro handicap go" (from 1968-05 to 1969-08):

Hashimoto Shoji - Sakata Eio (hcp 3) B+35 GR1968-05/06
Miyamoto Naoki - Fujisawa Shuko (hcp 5) B+68 GR1968-07/08/09
Miyamoto Yoshihisa - Shiraishi Yutaka (hcp 7) B+92 GR1969-01/02
Ishii Shinzo - Tono Hiroaki (hcp 4) B+42 GR1969-03/04
Koyama Yasuo - Minami Yoshimi (hcp 6) B+66 GR1969-05/06
Minami Yoshimi - Suzuki Etsuo (hcp 9) B+124 GR1969-07/08

The comments are quite detailed (20+ pages per game), with 20 problems inserted at various points.

[Ferran]

There is a whole lot of pro-ama commented handicap games in the Go Review. One, but sometimes more, in virtually every issue.

I've never "been into" GR. I remember seeing it back when FTP-ing by text was a thing, but... It never really pinged me. Recently, however, it keeps reminding me it exists. Takagawa, handicaps...

So, a few minutes back I gave up and I'm now heating my modem while it downloads the order. I'm afraid CDs are way out of fashion.

Anyhow, thanks for your suggestions and your index. Take care

[Shenoute]

I hope you'll enjoy GR has much as I do!

The first issues are a bit...rough. Most notably, the English terminology is not always the one we're used to but that somehow adds to the charm. It's interesting to witness (part of) the history of Western go being written in real time.

[Ferran]

I hope you'll enjoy GR has much as I do!

Oh, I just found there's a comment on the atomic bomb game I didn't have (how such a game is so unchecked in the West beats me), and another between Iwamoto and Kawabata. My inner nerd is squealing.

The first issues are a bit...rough. Most notably, the English terminology is not always the one we're used to but that somehow adds to the charm. It's interesting to witness (part of) the history of Western go being written in real time.

I've probably seen worse Japanese to English concept translations. If only because there are some that my brain simply refuses to register. 'All your base are belongs to us' comes to mind.

Take care