What is the value of a move in a yose ko?

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Gérard TAILLE
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Re: What is the value of a move in a yose ko?

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

kvasir wrote:Let's look at this model for an approach ko with explicit ko threats again.

First I want to correct some errors I made.

The game form for the model with corrections marked in red ink:

G = { a | G^R }
G^L = { a │ { a - d_1, G │ … } }
G^R = { { … │ { G^L │ … }, H + d_2 } │ H}

H = { H^L | b }
H^L = { a │ { a - d_3, { … | H^R } │ … } }
H^R = { { … │ { H^L │ … }, b + d_4 } │ b }

Now we play this game to discover its structure:

Left:
G => a-t (1)

Right:
G => G^R+t => G^RL => {G^L-t│…}+t => G^L => G^LR-t => a-d_1 (2)
G => G^R+t => G^RL => {G^L-t│…}+t => G^L => G^LR-t => G …ko continues
G => G^R+t => G^RL => H+d_2+t => H^L+d_2 => t+H^LR+d_2 => a-d_3+d_2 (3)
G => G^R+t => G^RL => H+d_2+t => H^L+d_2 => t+H^LR+d_2 => {…│H^R }+d_2 => t+H^R+d_2 => H^RL+d_2 => t+b+d_4+d_2 (4)
G => G^R+t => G^RL => H+d_2+t => H^L+d_2 => t+H^LR+d_2 => {…│H^R }+d_2 => t+H^R+d_2=> {H^L│…}+d_2 => H^L+d_2 …ko continues
G => G^R+t => G^RL => H+d_2+t => H^L+d_2 => t+H^LR+d_2 => {…│H^R }+d_2 => t+H^R+d_2 => no move => 2t+d_2+b (5)
Because my formula are a little different I think we have to clarify two points: firstly what is the value of a move in a ko threat area and secondly when is the game finished.

1)What is the value of a move in a ko threat area?
Let'me take again the following example of ko threat area:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ | . . . . . . $$ | X X X . . . $$ | . . X O . . $$ | X X O O . . $$ | O O O . . . $$ |------------[/go]

After the white ko treat we reach the following position:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ | . . . . . . $$ | X X X . . . $$ | . O X O . . $$ | X X O O . . $$ | O O O . . . $$ |------------[/go]

This position is very easy to evaluate. The tree is {2|-4} and the miai value is +3.
Taking your notation is it a good understanding to say here that d = +3 ?
IOW when white plays the ko threat white wins d points and if later white executes the ko threat then white will gain again d other points.
When playing a cooled game is it a good understanding that when white plays a ko threat white gains d-t points?

2)When is the game finished?
In the cooled game you consider, is it a good understanding to say that the game is finished when both players prefer to pass instead of playing locally or instead of playing in a ko threat area?
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Re: What is the value of a move in a yose ko?

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

kvasir wrote: I’m not completely sure but I think the thermography of the position is (btw there is a picture below)

if t ≥ 2 v - 2 d
lw(G_t) = 1 / 3 v + 1 / 3 d
else
lw(G_t) = v -t

if t ≥ 2 / 3 v - 1 / 3 d
rw(G_t) = 1 / 3 v + 1 / 3 d
if 2 / 3 v - 1 / 3 d ≥ t ≥ v - 3 / 4 d
rw(G_t) = 2 t + d - v
if v - 3 / 4 d ≥ t ≥ 1 / 2 d
rw(G_t) = v - 1 / 2 d
else
rw(G_t) = t + v - d

The thermography appears to unveil a critical point that we didn’t know about
t_2 = 2 / 3 v - 1 / 3 d

That seems to be all for critical points.
approach ko.png
First of all you are very courageous to try and draw the thermograph because it is a big and boring job. Congratulation for that kvasir.

Now concerning the resulting thermograph something must be wrong:
taking the S axe I can see : v-d > 1/3v+1/3d => 4/3d < 2/3v => d < 1/2v
taking the t axis I can see : 2/3v-1/3d > v-3/4d => 5/12t > 1/3v => d > 4/5v
=> the two axes are not consistant.
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Re: What is the value of a move in a yose ko?

Post by kvasir »

Gérard TAILLE wrote:First of all you are very courageous to try and draw the thermograph because it is a big and boring job. Congratulation for that kvasir.
Not boring but very frustrating.
Gérard TAILLE wrote:Now concerning the resulting thermograph something must be wrong:
taking the S axe I can see : v-d > 1/3v+1/3d => 4/3d < 2/3v => d < 1/2v
taking the t axis I can see : 2/3v-1/3d > v-3/4d => 5/12t > 1/3v => d > 4/5v
=> the two axes are not consistant.
I see what you mean. Thank you for pointing this out.

At first I thought it was my choice to instead of a real projection (v, d, s) -> (t, s) to offer two anamorphosis. One of the top half of the thermography where right can win the ko if d is large enough and another of the bottom half where right can never win the ko anyway. This wasn't very well thought out, in effect I just thought I was done when the two halves looked right. Now I realize that I must have mixed up some of the constraints, not sure how exactly, it might be easier for me to start from scratch than it is to correct.

For now I'm going to think about the direct ko instead.
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Re: What is the value of a move in a yose ko?

Post by kvasir »

Gérard TAILLE wrote: Because my formula are a little different I think we have to clarify two points: firstly what is the value of a move in a ko threat area and secondly when is the game finished.

1)What is the value of a move in a ko threat area?
Let'me take again the following example of ko threat area:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ | . . . . . . $$ | X X X . . . $$ | . . X O . . $$ | X X O O . . $$ | O O O . . . $$ |------------[/go]

After the white ko treat we reach the following position:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ | . . . . . . $$ | X X X . . . $$ | . O X O . . $$ | X X O O . . $$ | O O O . . . $$ |------------[/go]

This position is very easy to evaluate. The tree is {2|-4} and the miai value is +3.
Taking your notation is it a good understanding to say here that d = +3 ?
IOW when white plays the ko threat white wins d points and if later white executes the ko threat then white will gain again d other points.
When playing a cooled game is it a good understanding that when white plays a ko threat white gains d-t points?
The idea behind assigning a number was to start with something simpler. At least derive what this number should be, before considering the various types of ko threats.

My hunch is that ±d (which is {d|-d}) isn't it. When either side plays in ±d they immediately gain. Adding this move would also increases the temperature of the game to d. This would also not allow for answering the ko threat; it isn't a threat at all.

Some of my ideas so far for -d are
+_2d = { 0 ││ {0 │ -2d} }
+_({-100 | 2d}) = {0 │││ {0 ││ {-2d│100} } }
{ 0 │ -a + ±b } if a + b = 2d
±(d) + ±(d) = { {2d│0} ││ {0│-2d} }
but I haven't really checked them.

Maybe +_2d is what is most straightforward. I have 2d since replacing a number with a game will otherwise create a tedomari when d >> t. At least that is my hunch.
Gérard TAILLE wrote: 2)When is the game finished?
In the cooled game you consider, is it a good understanding to say that the game is finished when both players prefer to pass instead of playing locally or instead of playing in a ko threat area?
Not exactly but maybe in practice. The players are indifferent to games when they aren't sufficiently cooled and play becomes completely forced when it is cooled down to t=0. Which I always think breaks the "temperature" analogy, shouldn't the game freeze over when it is cooled more, not less :scratch: But this is how it works.

Basically, there can be a pass but that would mean we should replace that position with a number in the cooled game.

As for cycles there is handwaving. We sort of know what we want, which is to compare play that ends in positions that we can give a value to. We can eliminate cycles by ignoring them but also need to be careful not to try to analyze positions where we would in fact get stuck in a cycle.
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Re: What is the value of a move in a yose ko?

Post by kvasir »

About ko threats.

When I wrote
G_t = { v-t ││ t + { v - d - t, d - v │ … } }

This is basically the cooled direct ko with some d ko threats, except that I skip a cooling by t when d appears. You could say I use d - t rather than d. That is in order to get the value for d for G not some value that needs to have t added back.

Using d instead 2d appears closer to how I'd think about it. Making the ko threat often doesn't have a value far from zero and then the follow up has to make up everything, it is convenient to just get that value instead of half that value.

There are some cases that confuse this picture but I think my form is effectively that of both players having some +_d and -_d threats available.

The form is a simplification of the following overly complicated one (typos likely)
G_t = { v - t ││││││ t + { { … ││││ t + { { … │││ t + { v + { … │ -d } - t ││ … } } - t │││││ … }, t + { d │││││ … } - v } -t ││││││ … } }

Maybe one could write the direct ko in some way, say H and then add ko threats
G = H + n * +_(d) + m * -_(d)

One can play out this game without adding the components explicitly. I might do just that when if I feel energetic sometime but there is lot to be said about using the simplest forms one can find. For one thing they can match how one thinks of these positions when complicated trees, in contrast, are far from the human experience of playing Go. I think I'd much prefer writing down a spanning tree for the actual Go game and identify how to write a simple form based on that.
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Re: What is the value of a move in a yose ko?

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

Yes kvasir it is a good idea to analyse first a "simple" (???) direct ko.

In order to show you my own analyse I will change some notation.

First of all I consider the two following positions I call G and H:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ -----------------+ $$ . . . . . . X O .| $$ . . . . . . X O O| $$ . . . . . . X O .| $$ . . . . . , O X O| $$ . . . . . . O X X| $$ . . . . . . O . O| $$ . . . . . . O O O| $$ . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . .|[/go]
Position G

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ -----------------+ $$ . . . . . . X O .| $$ . . . . . . X O O| $$ . . . . . . X O X| $$ . . . . . , O X .| $$ . . . . . . O X X| $$ . . . . . . O . O| $$ . . . . . . O O O| $$ . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . .|[/go]
Position H

In addition I define position G' identical to G but in G' black is not allowed to take the ko.
Similarly I define position H' identical to H but in H' white is not allowed to take the ko.

I call K the swing value of the ko : here K = 18
I call t the temperature of the environment or, if you prefer, the cooled value.

Now I assume the fight of the ko should take place. That means K > 3t.
Finally I assume each player have the same big set of ko threats : 2d1 > 2d > 2d3 ... > 0

At the beginning of the ko fight each player is able to use big ko threats and the opponent has te answer the ko threats. As soon as the value of ko threat become small enough then one player will ignore ko threat and the opponent will end the ko.
What is the value 2δ of this freezing ko threat?
Starting from G
1) if black wins the ko then the count is C1 = K - 2δ
2) if white wins the ko then the count is C2 = 2δ - t
The freezing ko threat appears when C1 = C2 => 4δ = K+t

Now let define d by δ = t + d
Then C1 = C2 => 4(t+d) = K+t => K = 3t + 4d

Simple algebra will now give you the value of each move assuming the freezing ko threat.

Considering the sequence:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w2: ko threat, :b3: answer to ko threat, :b5: ko threat, :w7: ko threat execution $$ -----------------+ $$ . . . . . . X O .| $$ . . . . . . X O O| $$ . . . . . . X O 1| $$ . . . . . , O X 4| $$ . . . . . . O X X| $$ . . . . . . O 6 O| $$ . . . . . . O O O| $$ . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

The count of G,G',H,H' as well as the value of each move are given in the following figure:
active ko.png
active ko.png (18.01 KiB) Viewed 13255 times
Comment 1: you can see that the value of :w2: is t+3d while the value of :b3: is only t+d. Why? Beause :w2: gains OC the value of the ko threat (t+d) but :w2: gains also point in the local position because before :w2: the local position is H' while after :w2: the local position is H.
Comment 2: all move values are greater than t; that means that neither player can play tenuki without losing points. Fighting the ko is mandatory.
Comment3: it is interesting to note that the sequence :b1: to :b7: is gote for black and black gains only t points (and not K/3). The reason for that is that white gets compensation for losing the ko.
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Re: What is the value of a move in a yose ko?

Post by kvasir »

Gérard TAILLE wrote:At the beginning of the ko fight each player is able to use big ko threats and the opponent has te answer the ko threats. As soon as the value of ko threat become small enough then one player will ignore ko threat and the opponent will end the ko.
What is the value 2δ of this freezing ko threat?
Starting from G
1) if black wins the ko then the count is C1 = K - 2δ
2) if white wins the ko then the count is C2 = 2δ - t
The freezing ko threat appears when C1 = C2 => 4δ = K+t
OK, you define every variable differently than I have :lol:

I think
C2 = 2δ - t
should be
C2 = 2δ - K/3
since you said K > 3t.

I take your t to be the temperature of the environment excluding the ko.

So freezing of the ko is when
2δ = 1/3 K

Your 2d and 2δ correspond to my d but otherwise I think the analysis is the same.

I have often confused different temperature, I can only recommend to use different symbols for every different temperature and avoiding to consider different temperatures at the time same time.

I have preference against saying the temperature of the environment is T since I don't know what that means and it would seem to me if there is a ko position with a critical temperature close to T that the temperature of the two combined could be something that is not obvious.

Btw I like your graphs!
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Re: What is the value of a move in a yose ko?

Post by kvasir »

Actually I have more a detailed analysis of the direct ko that I want to spend some time double checking.
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Re: What is the value of a move in a yose ko?

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

kvasir wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:At the beginning of the ko fight each player is able to use big ko threats and the opponent has te answer the ko threats. As soon as the value of ko threat become small enough then one player will ignore ko threat and the opponent will end the ko.
What is the value 2δ of this freezing ko threat?
Starting from G
1) if black wins the ko then the count is C1 = K - 2δ
2) if white wins the ko then the count is C2 = 2δ - t
The freezing ko threat appears when C1 = C2 => 4δ = K+t
OK, you define every variable differently than I have :lol:

I think
C2 = 2δ - t
should be
C2 = 2δ - K/3
since you said K > 3t.

I take your t to be the temperature of the environment excluding the ko.

So freezing of the ko is when
2δ = 1/3 K

Your 2d and 2δ correspond to my d but otherwise I think the analysis is the same.

I have often confused different temperature, I can only recommend to use different symbols for every different temperature and avoiding to consider different temperatures at the time same time.

I have preference against saying the temperature of the environment is T since I don't know what that means and it would seem to me if there is a ko position with a critical temperature close to T that the temperature of the two combined could be something that is not obvious.

Btw I like your graphs!
C2 is the final count when white wins the ko. This situation corresponds exactly to the example sequence :b1: to :b7: I showed.
After the sequence the count in the local position is 0 because black has lost the ko, and the count in the ko area is 2δ (one white move is for the ko threat and a second move for white executing the ko threat). Because the sequence is gote for black the count for the cooled game is
C2 = 2δ - t.

I do not see how you can have C2 = 2δ - K/3. When I say K > 3t that means the ko is active but the cooled game remains with t not K/3.
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Re: What is the value of a move in a yose ko?

Post by kvasir »

Gérard TAILLE wrote:I do not see how you can have C2 = 2δ - K/3. When I say K > 3t that means the ko is active but the cooled game remains with t not K/3.
Looking at it closer I'm not sure I follow.

We start in G where black can take the ko to move to H' and white can just end it by capturing everything to move to C2. White can play a ko threat in H' but black can ignore it to move to C1. There is one ko threat here, black played one more move than white to get to C1 and white played one more move to get to C2. Therefore
C1 - d - t = C2 + t
using t the freezing point and d for some ko threat.

You seem to literally say that
C1 = C2
Gérard TAILLE wrote:Then C1 = C2 => 4(t+d) = K+t => K = 3t + 4d
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Re: What is the value of a move in a yose ko?

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

kvasir wrote: Looking at it closer I'm not sure I follow.

We start in G where black can take the ko to move to H' and white can just end it by capturing everything to move to C2.
It is true that we start in G but at the beginning of the ko fight I assumed both players are able to use big ko threats (I mean greater than the freezing ko threat).
In that case before reaching G with the freezing ko threat the sequence from H was:
:w1: white takes ko to reach G'
:b2: is a black ko threat and G' becomes G
now, from G, it is true that white can end the ko but in that case white has to ignore the last black ko threat. For that reason when you reach C2 the count is C2 = 2δ - t (2δ for the ko threat and the execution of the ko threat, and -t for cooled game) and not simply t (for the cooled game)
With a similar analysis the count for C1 at the freezing ko threat is C1 = K - 2δ
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Re: What is the value of a move in a yose ko?

Post by kvasir »

Gérard TAILLE wrote:It is true that we start in G but at the beginning of the ko fight I assumed both players are able to use big ko threats (I mean greater than the freezing ko threat).
In that case before reaching G with the freezing ko threat the sequence from H was:
Are you comparing the following scenarios

H => G' => G + d => ... => G + d => C2 + d => C2 + 2d
G => H' => H - d => ... => H - d => C1 - d => C1 - 2d

I don't know if it is this or something else that you mean.
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Re: What is the value of a move in a yose ko?

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

kvasir wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:It is true that we start in G but at the beginning of the ko fight I assumed both players are able to use big ko threats (I mean greater than the freezing ko threat).
In that case before reaching G with the freezing ko threat the sequence from H was:
Are you comparing the following scenarios

H => G' => G + d => ... => G + d => C2 + d => C2 + 2d
G => H' => H - d => ... => H - d => C1 - d => C1 - 2d

I don't know if it is this or something else that you mean.
No, surely I was not clear enough. Sorry for that.

The starting position is position G, black to play, with both players having a lot of ko threats including big ones.
The two scenarios begin with the same moves : black takes first the ko and a ko fight takes place until we reach the freezing ko threat.
At the freezing ko threat I say simply that the result do not depend on which player decide to ignore the opponent ko threat:
C1 : black wins this ko while white gets compensation from her ko threat and the sequence is globally sente for black
C2 : white wins this ko while black gets compensation from her ko threat and the sequence is globally gote for black (=> -t appears for cooling)
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Re: What is the value of a move in a yose ko?

Post by kvasir »

Gérard TAILLE wrote:The starting position is position G, black to play, with both players having a lot of ko threats including big ones.
The two scenarios begin with the same moves : black takes first the ko and a ko fight takes place until we reach the freezing ko threat.
At the freezing ko threat I say simply that the result do not depend on which player decide to ignore the opponent ko threat:
C1 : black wins this ko while white gets compensation from her ko threat and the sequence is globally sente for black
C2 : white wins this ko while black gets compensation from her ko threat and the sequence is globally gote for black (=> -t appears for cooling)
If your t is still a temperature of something other than the ko, isn't it then a free variable like d?

How do you solve the equation
K = 3t + 4d
without changing variables?
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Re: What is the value of a move in a yose ko?

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

kvasir wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:The starting position is position G, black to play, with both players having a lot of ko threats including big ones.
The two scenarios begin with the same moves : black takes first the ko and a ko fight takes place until we reach the freezing ko threat.
At the freezing ko threat I say simply that the result do not depend on which player decide to ignore the opponent ko threat:
C1 : black wins this ko while white gets compensation from her ko threat and the sequence is globally sente for black
C2 : white wins this ko while black gets compensation from her ko threat and the sequence is globally gote for black (=> -t appears for cooling)
If your t is still a temperature of something other than the ko, isn't it then a free variable like d?

How do you solve the equation
K = 3t + 4d
without changing variables?
t is for me the tenperature of the environment. As such t is logically used as the cooling value.

What now about d? Assume a ko fight takes place. As far as each player uses big ko threats then the ko fight will continue. At a certain time a player will use a ko threat not big enough and the opponent will ignore this ko threat. Here we have reached the freezing ko threat and the value d is defined for that freezing ko threat. The player playing this freezing ko threat will be able to play the ko threat and to continue by executing the threat to gain 2t + 2d points.

The main result of my analysis is the equation K = 3t + 4d allowing to calculate d. That way you know when you have to answer a ko threat and when you have to ignore it. The stake of the ko is really the 4d points of the equation. If a player decide to not fight a ko she will loose 4d points. By fighting the ko each player will be able to gain 2d points.

If now you assume one player have better ko threats available then the sharing of the 4d points might be 3d for the player with the better ko threats and only d for the other player. OC if one player have no ko threat at all the opponent will take the 4d points. I will be able to show you in detail how to calculate the freezing ko threat in case a player have better ko threats than the other but it is another issue.
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