Sir Demis, new 9p Nihon Kiin

[Ferran]

Hassabis, sir Demis, was awarded a 9p last week at the Nihon Kiin.

https://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/news/etc/post_971.html

Take care

[Javaness2]

Who else should we award a 9 dan diploma to?

[Ferran]

Aja Huang seems like an obvious choice. I'd include Aja Huang and, likely, the coders of other modern bots. Maybe not as 9p, but still... Chris Garlock and some other Internet personalities, too. Some writers and store owners.. Some people have done a lot to make Go much more easy to reach.

Also, I think it's absurd that they get NK pro while they are ignored by Western associations. That's my pet oeeve, though, the same way I believe Eastern qualified pros should be more integrated in the European system.

Take care.

[jlt]

I vote for Lightvector (creator of Katago).

[Ferran]

I vote for Lightvector (creator of Katago).

He would be my favorites, sure. But I don't think we'd have KataGo without leela. And so on.

Take care

[RobertJasiek]

It is all fine and well to respect people having contributed much to Go but honorary titles of playing strengths are the wrong means because they do not reflect reality. Ranks can be assigned to programs but should not be assigned to computer scientists having created them or managed their creation. Same for other contribution to Go. Respect research as such (as do the Nobel Prize, scientific discussion or application) - not as fake playing strength of the researchers and not as aristocratic titles.

[Ferran]

Robert,

I see your point, but I don't quite agree. I'll only point in passing that granting a degree to the programmer feels much more logical than granting it to the program as the KBA did (they didnt have as much time to think about it, obviously). That's not your point and, anyhow, Spock just kicked me off the ship. "Feels more logical". Shame on me.

I don't think Go associations are properly set to recognize outside talent. In so many ways. I've mentioned before how I wish that former Western pros who got their status in Eastern associations were properly grandfathered in. Again, however, that's tangential.

But it remains that the only form of recognition for Go associations is rank (or Halls of Fame, but that seems premature). And I'd say there's precedent of important people being granted ranks. If not formally, then by virtue of handicap.

Also... well, it's not fooling anyone. Nor does it intend to. So, yeah, maybe some sort of medals, or certificates of appreciation, or equivalent, would be more adequate. But that's the system we have, and, warts and all, we're used to it. I wouldn't worry much about it.

Mind you, a part of me wants to see sir Demis in the Honinbo league. That would be a game...

Take care

[xela]

To be honest, my reaction was a little similar to Robert's. To be sure, Demis Hassabis (and Gian-Carlo Pascutto and David Wu) has had an immense impact on the go world and deserves to be honoured. But I'm curious about the precedents: has the Nihon Kiin awarded honorary 9p ranks to others who've contributed without playing at a high level?

For comparison: in chess, you only get a grandmaster title if you play at a high level. Actually, I didn't know until I looked it up yesterday: FIDE has awarded a few honorary grandmaster titles. And their choice of awardees seems a bit arbitrary. Some are players who predate the modern title system, and others are international masters who for one reason or another narrowly missed out on the grandmaster title. (And it's not hard to think of equally deserving players who didn't get an honorary title.) But as far as I can tell, all of them have at least played at master level and been close to grandmaster strength.

[jlt]

A similar controversy exists for honorary academic degrees (doctor honoris causa).

[Javaness2]

The NHK gives out such certificates partly to generate publicity. It seems like a reasonable plan to me.
This lad had a 2 dan diploma : https://senseis.xmp.net/?DanielBarry

[pajaro]

Daniel Barry's diploma is for amateur 2-dan, I think. And Koichi Wakata, his rival in space, was awarded a 1-dan diploma.

But in this case, are we talking (honorary) pro diplomas? Is it stated somewhere?

[Ferran]

But in this case, are we talking (honorary) pro diplomas? Is it stated somewhere?

It's a 9th dan. Ama reach upto 7th. 8 in some cases that I don't think apply to Japan.

Take care