Prokovich game

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dfan
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by dfan »

No commentary for this move, unfortunately - I agree that it was an interesting decision point.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30 ACTUAL GAME: Move 30
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . 1 . X . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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plankton
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by plankton »

I think B will play f6 next and that W will respond.
I don't think B can nullify the marked stones with move 33.


In the first diagram, B plays the kosumi for move 33.
W can play this sequence and get a ko with a-f
B gets to play p2 also but it looks too risky.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . 5 X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X 4 . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . 3 f . W X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . W b X d W . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . a 8 c 6 . . 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . e . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In the second diagram, B plays nobi for 33.
W can run into the center using the tsukekoshi at move 36.
B should be able to make some profit by attacking these stones.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm33
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . 9 4 3 8 . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 5 6 . 0 . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . 1 . W X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . W . X . W . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

plankton wrote:I think B will play f6 next and that W will respond.
I don't think B can nullify the marked stones with move 33.


In the first diagram, B plays the kosumi for move 33.
W can play this sequence and get a ko with a-f
B gets to play p2 also but it looks too risky.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . 5 X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X 4 . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . 3 f . W X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . W b X d W . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . a 8 c 6 . . 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . e . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...

If black does play 31 and white answers with 32, then 33 below looks better for black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O 3 X . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Indeed, I can't help but wonder if white would bother with such a passive play for :w32:. I think that white can do more harm with :w32: below than black can with an unopposed :b31:.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . 2 . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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plankton
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by plankton »

Joaz Banbeck wrote:Indeed, I can't help but wonder if white would bother with such a passive play for :w32:. I think that white can do more harm with :w32: below than black can with an unopposed :b31:.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . 2 . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


That is interesting.
I would respond to B 31 if at all possible instead of rushing to play a move like this W 32.
Any damage w can do by playing 32 now is minus the damage w could have done after responding at d7.

Joaz Banbeck wrote:If black does play 31 and white answers with 32, then 33 below looks better for black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O 3 X . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



B33 is another interesting but risky move. It looks more complicated than the 2 options i suggested.

We should think about the variations that arise after this move.

So far I prefer B 33 at k4

Hidden to save space:
After either of the marked W nobis the B moves that i think of are at 'a' to 'd'.

I'm not sure, but lets say that w plays at m5 first.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm34
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . b . . c d X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . a . X W . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . W . . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O B X . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And then B plays m6 to avoid getting into trouble on the right.
I want to look at B 'a' and 'b' here.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm34
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . a . . . 2 X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . b . X 1 . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . 3 . . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O X X . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


With B 'a' W can cut out into the center with the kosumi at 38.
B can't do his prior moves justice by giving up the marked stones.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm36
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . 2 . . . X X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 3 . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . 1 . . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O B B . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So lets look at option 'b'...
B does not have the option of semeai because of the warikomi with W42 safely taking a large profit.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm36
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 6 . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . 5 4 . . X X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . 7 . 3 2 . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . 1 . . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O X X . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This hane and crosscut at B 39 looks like what might happen.
Anyway, i dont think b can call it a success.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm39
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 0 . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . 1 2 7 . X X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 3 O 8 6 X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O 4 5 9 O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O X X . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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dfan
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by dfan »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 ACTUAL GAME: Move 31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . x . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . a 1 b . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It is interesting that no one seemed to look at anything but x for Black. The commentary for this move is all about choosing between :b31:, a, and b. (I don't want to say what their conclusions were yet, though.)
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Kirby
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by Kirby »

H4. If H5, then K2.
be immersed
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Kirby wrote:H4. If H5, then K2.


I think Kirby found the best line.
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by dfan »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm32 ACTUAL GAME: Move 32
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . 1 X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby and Joaz (and others): What do you will think will happen down here? Which stones will live, which will die, which will run?
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Chew Terr
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by Chew Terr »

I am betting that M4 stays dead, but H4 and E3 both run.
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by plankton »

I liked the double extension sequence with W 38 connecting via atekomi at 'a' or underneath. There is ugly kikashi left at 'b' so B probably needs to spend a move to defend that also.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm33
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . b 1 . . X 2 7 . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . W X . . O X a . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X . O . X 6 . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . 5 . 4 . 8 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I thought that W also had the option of living with W 42 connecting underneath.

But B can attempt to kill W with the hae at 45 then connecting at 'a'
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm37
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . B a . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . W X 0 . O X . . O 2 . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O 8 X . O . X 5 1 O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . 9 7 6 . O . . 3 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The marked exhcnge seems to be helping B but Im not sure.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm35
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . a . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . X 0 . O X . . O 2 . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O 8 X . O . X 5 1 O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . 9 7 6 . O . . 3 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So I have come to agree with Kirby's suggestion to play out the left sequence first.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm33
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 0 1 7 . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X 6 . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . 9 O 4 X 8 O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . 5 3 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Breaking out into the center with something like l7.

sorry l7 is very bad. :lol:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm43
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 . . . 6 . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . 5 0 X X 4 X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X 1 O X O . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X O O 2 O O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by dfan »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm33 ACTUAL GAME: Moves 33-34
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 1 . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

EDIT: I wrote most of this last night and then posted it this morning without noticing that Dfan had posted...


Black has 16 stones on the board. One is a sacrifice, four are on the opposite side of the board. Of the remaining 11, 8 are dependant on the death of M3/M4to stay alive. That is half of black's stones. Thus killing M3/M4 and keeping them dead is black's top priority.

Black's second priority is killing H3/H4. If he can do this, he is probably ahead, with better prospects. ( Black would have 30 points in the lower side, and 10 each in the upper corners for a total of 50, and he can extend into the center. White would have about 20 points on the right side and 15 to 20 on the left for a total of maybe 40. White can extend northward along either side, but has to face a black shimari looking down at him. )

White, of course, realizes all of this, and has bet the farm on the survival of H3/H4. If it can move out into the center and kill F4, white is way ahead.

If F4 survives, it looks like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm32 Hypothetical running game
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . # . @ . . . . B . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . B . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . W . X . 1 B . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If both run, as marked with squares, white looks beter. The circled white stones are more of a threat to black's running group than the circled black stones are to white's running group.

So as long as H3/H4 survives, white looks like he is ahead either way.

In summary, if H3/H4 dies, black is ahead. If it lives, white is ahead.
If white gets H5, it probably lives. Therefore, black has to try to kill it with H5. That is my prediction for move 33.
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Kirby
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by Kirby »

Didn't dfan already play 33?
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by Kirby »

I guess L2... Though, black seems overconcentrated :(

Second guess is just G5 because of that.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

As stated in my previous post, black's top priority is killing M3/M4. K2 theatens to help them live. Therefore, black's next is a no-brainer:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm33 Prediction for 35
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 1 . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The next two moves seem forced:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm33 Prediction for 36-37
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 1 . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X 5 O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . 4 2 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


At that point, white's group cannot live on the side by itself. It either has to connect underneath to C2 or cut its way out with G5:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm38 Possibilities for 38
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . a X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . b . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Connecting resolves all the tension and leaves black with sente:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm38 Connecting underneath with 38
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 2 X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 1 . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


...therefore, white wants to cut first, then threaten to connect:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm38 Possibilities for 38
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 1 X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X 2 O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 3 . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now if black had taken my advice earlier and exchanged E6 for D6, then laddering 38 would be trivial:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm38 With my advice
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . @ # . 4 . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 1 X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X 2 O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 3 . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But, the best black can do is play the ladder-breaker late like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm38 My predictions for 39, 40, 41, and 42
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . 5 . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 1 X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X 2 O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 3 . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


...which continues like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm38 Black protects the cutting point at 'a'
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . 5 6 . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . 8 1 X a . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X 2 O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 3 . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
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