Byo-yomi: Do you like it?

[Dusk Eagle]

Ing clock timers are kind-of annoying and kind-of humorous, but to say that "no person can take Japanese byoyomi seriously anymore" based on 103 clocks going off at their loudest setting all at once is a non sequitor. I actually like my seconds being read out loud to me, but I would prefer if the clock could do it in a somewhat quiet, non-annoying voice using as few words as possible. Something like "2nd period" at the start of my turn to indicate I have used one period so far, and a countdown from 10 to 1 would suffice. This would be much better than the Ing clock's verbosity.

P.S. In chess, I don't think there's much purpose in counting out loud, as there is no byo-yomi.

[Liisa]

In chess, I don't think there's much purpose in counting out loud, as there is no byo-yomi.

But have you noticed why there is no byouyomi used in Chess? I think that the rationale behind byouyomi is tied to the context of Eastern Asian culture. Not for the byouyomi itself.

There is nothing intrinsically different in Chess why we should not use byouyomi there, but Chess's culture is based mostly on western values, and western culture does not require that there is assistant who reads the seconds for the players. I think that this is due to that that chessmaster's status value is so low compared to Go master, but this is speculative assumption.

E.g. with shougi, byouyomi is used, because byouyomi is a part of Japanese tradition. It has nothing to do with game itself, but has plenty to do with the culture and traditions and the status value of shougi and go masters.

This is also the reason why you cannot silence the first generation Ing clock, although from Western cultural perspective it is just pure insanity. Ing clock just reflects Easter Asian culture, but that clock is completely incompatible with Western values.

[Dusk Eagle]

I think the bigger reason chess doesn't have byo-yomi (or Canadian timing...) is that it is simply not necessary - Chess ends when one player checkmates the other's king. Go really only ends when both players agree to it. This means that while sudden death works fine in chess, it is completely broken in Go (as it is, I don't like sudden death either way, but at least it works in chess).

[zinger]

I don't think it's about values. It is just the way chess timing evolved, for practical reasons. Decades ago, chess used to have a sort of Canadian byo-yomi, when tournaments had repeating time controls of 20 moves in 60 minutes (or whatever). Sudden death (i.e. absolute) time control was adopted much later, in an attempt to keep a reliable maximium game time. This led to many awful results, with players just banging out moves in a drawn position to get a win on time. In response USCF adopted the "no losing chances" rule, which was subject to interpretation and therefore, at times, controversy. Eventually, digital clocks allowed for implementation of a delay, and now most tournaments are played using this rule, with a delay such as 5 seconds before your clock moves at all. It is easily recognized that in effect, this is equivalent to a single japanese byo-yomi period of 5 seconds.

So you see, chess does use byo-yomi

[palapiku]

I think the bigger reason chess doesn't have byo-yomi (or Canadian timing...) is that it is simply not necessary - Chess ends when one player checkmates the other's king. Go really only ends when both players agree to it. This means that while sudden death works fine in chess, it is completely broken in Go (as it is, I don't like sudden death either way, but at least it works in chess).

This would be true except that Fischer, Bronstein and actually a form of Canadian were all invented to solve the perceived problems of absolute timing in Chess.

[Liisa]

I think the bigger reason chess doesn't have byo-yomi (or Canadian timing...) is that it is simply not necessary - Chess ends when one player checkmates the other's king. Go really only ends when both players agree to it. This means that while sudden death works fine in chess, it is completely broken in Go (as it is, I don't like sudden death either way, but at least it works in chess).

This argument is falsified with the notion that with shougi byouyomi is used and shougi does not differ that much from Chess.

Also although chess games do usually have less moves, (less than 200), longest chess game is IIRC around 1200 moves long, before a draw was agreed. Compare that to longest go game that is about 440 moves (i do not remember). 50 move rule (i.e. that if progress is not made by moving Princesses forward within last 100 move, game can be declared as a draw.) is rather new invention for preventing megalong Queen endgames and moving just pieces in locked position. Fair portion of chess games end up in drawish positions that will not end before the result is agreed as a draw. So in chess you do not have anything else than your experience, feeling and horoscope to tell that game should be agreed as a draw. In go position is always clear (for the SDK players) when the game ends and game span is always predictable (200-350 moves). That is not the case with the Chess.

Therefore absolute timing fits very well to go and much better than to chess. Even better if we adjust the variations with move count with Fischer timing.

[Dusk Eagle]

I don't think it's about values. It is just the way chess timing evolved, for practical reasons. Decades ago, chess used to have a sort of Canadian byo-yomi, when tournaments had repeating time controls of 20 moves in 60 minutes (or whatever). Sudden death (i.e. absolute) time control was adopted much later, in an attempt to keep a reliable maximium game time. This led to many awful results, with players just banging out moves in a drawn position to get a win on time. In response USCF adopted the "no losing chances" rule, which was subject to interpretation and therefore, at times, controversy. Eventually, digital clocks allowed for implementation of a delay, and now most tournaments are played using this rule, with a delay such as 5 seconds before your clock moves at all. It is easily recognized that in effect, this is equivalent to a single japanese byo-yomi period of 5 seconds.

So you see, chess does use byo-yomi

I was not aware of this. All the tournaments I had been in used sudden death timing. I like this method much more than the SD I had to play with.