Hello i stubled on this position that i christianed as a Stair ten in the corner
I think that White can get a seki or a ko
But is there a way for Black to keep his territory?
PS this is in preperation for a page on sensei's library on this corner shape
status
-
Joaz Banbeck
- Judan
- Posts: 5546
- Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:30 am
- Rank: 1D AGA
- GD Posts: 1512
- Kaya handle: Test
- Location: Banbeck Vale
- Has thanked: 1080 times
- Been thanked: 1434 times
Re: status
I don't think that there is much long term benefit to doing this ( sorry! ), for arriving at the position almost certainly requires some serious DDK mistakes.
If the position gets to this point, such that black is getting locked in and running out of external liberties, 'a' is the natural play before 'b' or 'c'.
If the position gets to this point, such that black is getting locked in and running out of external liberties, 'a' is the natural play before 'b' or 'c'.
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
-
HermanHiddema
- Gosei
- Posts: 2011
- Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:08 am
- Rank: Dutch 4D
- GD Posts: 645
- Universal go server handle: herminator
- Location: Groningen, NL
- Has thanked: 202 times
- Been thanked: 1086 times
Re: status
White can get nothing here, it's just black territory.
All other variations revert to one of these.
-
Joaz Banbeck
- Judan
- Posts: 5546
- Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:30 am
- Rank: 1D AGA
- GD Posts: 1512
- Kaya handle: Test
- Location: Banbeck Vale
- Has thanked: 1080 times
- Been thanked: 1434 times
Re: status
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
-
freegame
- Lives in gote
- Posts: 399
- Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:40 am
- Rank: EGF 2d KGS 3d
- GD Posts: 353
- KGS: freegame
- Location: Shanghai, China
- Has thanked: 5 times
- Been thanked: 35 times
- Contact:
Re: status
looks a lot like seki to me.
black can also start a ko with
& 
, but this is a very bad ko for black.-
Joaz Banbeck
- Judan
- Posts: 5546
- Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:30 am
- Rank: 1D AGA
- GD Posts: 1512
- Kaya handle: Test
- Location: Banbeck Vale
- Has thanked: 1080 times
- Been thanked: 1434 times
Re: status
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
-
tapir
- Lives in sente
- Posts: 774
- Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:52 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 137 times
- Been thanked: 155 times
- Contact:
Re: status
I would make problems out of this, it is such a special and unlikely shape to put to the corner shapes. And is it really a staircase, it looks suspiciously like a absent big b2 bomber to my eye
-
HermanHiddema
- Gosei
- Posts: 2011
- Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:08 am
- Rank: Dutch 4D
- GD Posts: 645
- Universal go server handle: herminator
- Location: Groningen, NL
- Has thanked: 202 times
- Been thanked: 1086 times
Re: status
Heh, sorry, seems I posted to hastily. Seki indeed 
I agree with tapir that it's not really suitable for corner shapes though, it is too uncommon and will just clutter the page, better as a tsumego.
I agree with tapir that it's not really suitable for corner shapes though, it is too uncommon and will just clutter the page, better as a tsumego.
-
Joaz Banbeck
- Judan
- Posts: 5546
- Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:30 am
- Rank: 1D AGA
- GD Posts: 1512
- Kaya handle: Test
- Location: Banbeck Vale
- Has thanked: 1080 times
- Been thanked: 1434 times
Re: status
HermanHiddema wrote:Heh, sorry, seems I posted to hastily...
A few more oversights and you'll be down to my level of accuracy.
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
-
willemien
- Lives in gote
- Posts: 350
- Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:28 am
- Rank: EGF 12kyu
- GD Posts: 0
- DGS: willemien
- Location: London UK
- Has thanked: 19 times
- Been thanked: 19 times
Re: status
thanks for all the answers. 
I think it is a good shape for the Corner shapes page.
I always intended that page as a collection of different corner shapes that are just not territory.
and this is a rather simple ahape ( no cutting points or so)
and also it is one of the biggest shapes that is still not territory.
(or are there 11 point empty spaces without cutting points that can be turned into seki or ko?)
Another problem that is still bothering me what is the status of the [sl=]FiveStonesOnTheThirdLineInTheCorner[/sl]
I think it is a good shape for the Corner shapes page.
I always intended that page as a collection of different corner shapes that are just not territory.
and this is a rather simple ahape ( no cutting points or so)
and also it is one of the biggest shapes that is still not territory.
(or are there 11 point empty spaces without cutting points that can be turned into seki or ko?)
Another problem that is still bothering me what is the status of the [sl=]FiveStonesOnTheThirdLineInTheCorner[/sl]
Promotor and Librarian of Sensei's Library
-
Solomon
- Gosei
- Posts: 1848
- Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:21 pm
- Rank: AGA 5d
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: Capsule 4d
- Tygem: 치킨까스 5d
- Location: Bellevue, WA
- Has thanked: 90 times
- Been thanked: 835 times
Re: status
willemien wrote:Another problem that is still bothering me what is the status of the [sl=]FiveStonesOnTheThirdLineInTheCorner[/sl]
Depends who goes first.
-
Joaz Banbeck
- Judan
- Posts: 5546
- Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:30 am
- Rank: 1D AGA
- GD Posts: 1512
- Kaya handle: Test
- Location: Banbeck Vale
- Has thanked: 1080 times
- Been thanked: 1434 times
Re: status
Black can prevent easy life if he plays first:
White can choose a ko:
..or a seki:
The ko is expensive for white and cheap for black. Also, white must win it several times. So white almost certainly prefers the seki.
White can choose a ko:
..or a seki:
The ko is expensive for white and cheap for black. Also, white must win it several times. So white almost certainly prefers the seki.
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
-
Dusk Eagle
- Gosei
- Posts: 1758
- Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:02 pm
- Rank: 4d
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 378 times
- Been thanked: 375 times
Re: status
Joaz Banbeck wrote:Black can prevent easy life if he plays first.
I don't think so:
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
-
Joaz Banbeck
- Judan
- Posts: 5546
- Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:30 am
- Rank: 1D AGA
- GD Posts: 1512
- Kaya handle: Test
- Location: Banbeck Vale
- Has thanked: 1080 times
- Been thanked: 1434 times
Re: status
Seems I posted hastily too...
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
-
Solomon
- Gosei
- Posts: 1848
- Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:21 pm
- Rank: AGA 5d
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: Capsule 4d
- Tygem: 치킨까스 5d
- Location: Bellevue, WA
- Has thanked: 90 times
- Been thanked: 835 times
Re: status
Joaz Banbeck wrote::oops:
Seems I posted hastily too...
Who is the other person who posted hastily? If it was me, rest assured I didn't and still stand by what I said as I was not thinking of
in your figures:I am fairly certain that if it's Black to play and he plays first here, there is no way for White to live unconditionally. I would be delighted to see a refutation though as I couldn't find any after quite some thought. Instead of posting 8,318 different variations that seem to work, I'll just wait for variations from others that show White can live unconditionally and try to debunk those.