Am I the only one with a wrong judgement?

[Bill Spight]

My initial feeling is also that the final result is not bad for Black.

Thanks, Bill - that is what I was looking for.

The idea of a good position for black which is called 'bad' because of a previous wrong move by white and thus possibility for black to achieve something even better is interesting.

However, in the book, the white Q16 attachment is mentioned as a good choice for white here.

Well, I guess I am not as good as Cho.

[Kirby]

My initial feeling is also that the final result is not bad for Black.

Thanks, Bill - that is what I was looking for.

The idea of a good position for black which is called 'bad' because of a previous wrong move by white and thus possibility for black to achieve something even better is interesting.

However, in the book, the white Q16 attachment is mentioned as a good choice for white here. The following moves are these:

$$Bc
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . 3 X 2 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . O . 1 O 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . 3 X 2 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . O . 1 O 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------------[/go]

Comment: 'White ends up with the right side and Black controls the top. This result is even for both sides.'

So I am still having problems with the assessment that 'Black is bad' in the other variation. Anybody else?

You can compare the two final diagrams. If you like the second one for black more than the first one, I think you can say that the first one is bad for black. The book seems to say, "if you do this second sequence, black and white are equal". So it comes down to seeing if you prefer the second diagram you posted to the first: if you like an "even" position better than position X for black, position X must be bad for black (from your perspective).

So the question is, do you prefer the second diagram to the first?

[judicata]

I don't know how useful it is to equate "not the best possible position" with "bad." Things probably get "bad" for both players about 12 moves into the game .

[Kirby]

kerby, i talked about something similar to this before in gd.
many times in go you can not say this is good this is bad.
oriental people have different concept. this feels good this feels bad.
Example: it is similar in medicine. chinese medicine claims that there are flowing of chi in our body.
never been proved my modern medicine but many believe it to be true.
so to sum it all up. do not get caught up in saying some move is good or bad.
go has too many variations for man to say good or bad.

I don't get it, magicwand. Isn't this what you're doing when you say something like, "he made a mistake. I'm ahead, now." in a Malkovich game?

Certainly there are tough situations where it's hard to say who is ahead, but isn't it good to make an attempt to analyze the situation?

[ChradH]

I don't know how useful it is to equate "not the best possible position" with "bad." Things probably get "bad" for both players about 12 moves into the game .

I think that's the pros' attitude: Always try to find the best possible move. "Not bad" is simply not good enough.

[Solomon]

Imo, it is much easier to see that it's bad for Black if you look at the original position:

$$Bc
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------------[/go]

After 1-10 in the final diagram, Black's Chinese opening is shattered and Q11 is out of place. Remember, Q11's purpose in the Chinese opening is to allow Black to play more aggressively on the upper right corner, serving as a setup pincer to an approach there. But in the final diagram it becomes useless and has no attacking power anymore since White gained thickness and influence in the heart of Black's opening.

You could say that locally it looks okay, but globally it is problematic for Black.

[Andreas]

Actually, while the german term "nicht schlecht" (not bad) carries the implication of "good" and often expresses admiration, the Japanese term "warukunai" (not bad) carries the implication "not good either", comparable to the English "could have been worse".

[Alakazam]

I would immediately take white. White got a large corner that was originally black's, and they both established nice, strong positions full of profit. The problem with this is that white was outnumbered to begin with, and in any Chinese opening, white is supposed to live small, or very lightly - Normally black gets far more than what white gets, and often Sente too. Think of the black stone on the right side instead: If it's white's turn, it's unlikely that white's next move was to be played there, as the board is quite open. If it were to be thought of as a pincer, than its meaning would have long since vanished. Black would also not play his next move there, I believe. Anyway, compared to normal Chinese opening results for white, this is great.

To be honest, I would agree with Cho and say this is actually 'bad', bad enough to throw away from consideration after thinking about it a little.

[mitsun]

I will weigh in with a vote of "very slightly bad". The B stone at Q11 looks slightly inefficient in the final position; if I could move it a space or two further away, or play somewhere else entirely, I would do so. However, this is a minor quibble, probably only significant to a professional. Playing in a Malkovich game, I don't think I would pay two points for the privilege of moving it