Starcraft II

[fwiffo]

Can we create a semi-formal definition of cheese? Everybody seems to have a different idea of what constitutes cheese. Some people will accuse you of cheese for massing whatever unit they don't like, or using cloaked units. Others don't believe in cheese at all or restrict it to very few cases, like cannon rushes. Some would describe any all-in strategy as cheese; I would only use cheese to describe those that abuse a game mechanic in a cheesy way (e.g. static defense or unit producing structures inside your opponents' base, or that proxy evolution chamber rush, etc.) My definition would not include 6-pool as cheese (it would just be a high-risk, all-in strategy).

[Hushfield]

Cheese generally refers to an all-in strategy that relies on surprise to win a game early without serious resistance. A successfully executed cheese attack will catch the enemy early in their opening, while sacrificing early game macro.

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Cheese

I disagree. This is cheese:


Everything else is fair game.

[yoyoma]

Just cheesed in a ladder game for the first time after a very frustrating streak. Oddly enough, it was on Kulas Ravine, a large map that's very difficult to cheese on. Got paired with some ~850 diamond player, PvP. Gambled and sent a scout on 7, got lucky and found him on first guess, then proxy 2 gated. Needless to say, he wasn't very happy and the convo wasn't pleasant...I won, but I can't get this bitter aftertaste out of my mouth. Felt pretty much the same way as when I used to play Go games with SD time settings many years ago and, when I was losing but ahead on time, would make ridiculous plays just to drain my opponent's time and get a dirty win. Oh the shame....

For anyone who's been laddering, how often do you cheese if at all? If so, do you feel bad about it like I did? Or do you accept it as a valid strategy and consider it just as much of an earned win as a 40-minute macro game?

It's a war and you won.

I'm T and I lost to a proxy 2 gate on Steppes of War last night. It was a very exciting game! My heart was racing when I scouted his base and saw no buildings. I had already scouted my entire base, I didn't find the proxy (behind my nat minerals, I didn't think to check there too), but I knew it was coming so I built a bunker. Intense micro battle, I lost. It was a lot of fun.

A lot of posts in this thread complaining about bad manner. This is the internet, I shrug off bad manner. Why waste so much energy getting upset about it? You're playing random unknowns in the internet it's gonna happen. It doesn't really even happen to me all that often, less than 1 in 10 games.

[Hushfield]

There's nothing wrong with cheesing, and I think its not useful to think of it that way. I think there's very few cheeses that are purely BO luck, mechanics and game understanding play the ultimate role in the result.

Araban, if you continue to feel bad, take a look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIs5HS_oMxU

Lol, how is that going to make him feel better? The cheese-victim is absolutely devastated. Omg, I fell off my bean bag watching this, hilarious! The crowd also seems somewhat cruel in their laughter, but then again, Bisu schooled PokJu. Thanks for a fun share.

[ketchup]

I honestly do not understand people's issue with "cheese". What's the big deal? Isn't it a normal part of the game? Why do so many people have such a strong negative emotion regarding it? This is the biggest thing that surprises me about the TL forums. For a forum that's after creating a competitive environment, why is there such a negative outlook on cheese? Even the long term, "better" players get very upset about cheese(idra is the easiest example, and he's supposedly the best foreign player). I honestly do not understand why. I feel it's a pretty big part of the game to understand these mechanics as well. Well, that's just me. Can anyone tell me what the big deal is?

I'm trying to think of it in equivalence to go terms, but I honestly can not find a good example. I definitely do not get annoyed at someone playing tengen first move, or when the white player in a high handicap game tries to be extra aggressive. I have more issues with people playing longer than they should, and underestimating someone. In terms of starcraft, a cheese is the exact opposite. It's not about underestimation at all. In fact, in a lot of cases it's used when the opponent is not comfortable with a long drawn out game against certain races/people. I really do not get the negativity.

[Aphelion]

Most of the ppl on the TL SC2 forums these days are people who joined after SC2 beta or the SC2 release at the very least. They don't have much BW background and aren't indicative of the overall forums. The regulars have given up a little bit on the SC2 forums because its such a whine fest and so full of thrash posts, this has been the case is even before beta was released. I expect (hope for) a major clean up sometime, probably akin to strategy forum ban or something.

[Solomon]

Starcraft II...now taking over Google: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0Stg0f1360

[fwiffo]

Most sports have a history of creating rules to outlaw cheese. In ice hockey, a team used to be able to just shoot the puck down the length of the ice any time they gained possession, which made it easy to defend even against a better team, and created a slow, boring game. The NHL created the icing rule to force teams to carry the puck out of their end of the ice, improving the pace of the game. Certain tactics in basketball have been patched out with 5-second and 3-second violations. And several sports prevent cheese with offside rules.

So, if the sports part of my brain is thinking "offside!" the RTS part of my brain is thinking "cheese!"

[MountainGo]

I am new to the world of Starcraft, but I have to assume that the term "cheese" was invented to mean "cheap", i.e. something that has a good chance of winning despite being very simplistic and easy. Think about a fighting game where a certain character has a certain move that's overpowered and difficult to win against, so someone chooses that character and just does that move over and over. That person might be terrible at all other aspects of the game, and so you resent that your superior all-around skill was nullified. You begin to develop a conception of what a "real" match looks like, and you regard anyone who steps outside that conception as rude, like someone stepping outside of social norms of politeness. The problem is that you're playing the game that you want to exist rather than the one that actually does. As you sink deeper into denial, the line begins to blur even between tactics outside of your artificial norms and tactics that beat you. You grow to hate the game, quit, then find a new one, and the cycle begins again...

By the way, I already posted this link in the other thread here, but I'll put it here, too: my newbie Go/Starcraft blog (currently only about Starcraft since that's all I'm playing these days).

[Aphelion]

Cheese always goes with wine Don't bring the wine.

[emeraldemon]

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

[Solomon]

I am new to the world of Starcraft, but I have to assume that the term "cheese" was invented to mean "cheap", i.e. something that has a good chance of winning despite being very simplistic and easy. Think about a fighting game where a certain character has a certain move that's overpowered and difficult to win against, so someone chooses that character and just does that move over and over. That person might be terrible at all other aspects of the game, and so you resent that your superior all-around skill was nullified. You begin to develop a conception of what a "real" match looks like, and you regard anyone who steps outside that conception as rude, like someone stepping outside of social norms of politeness. The problem is that you're playing the game that you want to exist rather than the one that actually does. As you sink deeper into denial, the line begins to blur even between tactics outside of your artificial norms and tactics that beat you. You grow to hate the game, quit, then find a new one, and the cycle begins again...

By the way, I already posted this link in the other thread here, but I'll put it here, too: my newbie Go/Starcraft blog (currently only about Starcraft since that's all I'm playing these days).

Close...but not quite: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Cheese

And actually I like your explanation better .

I honestly do not understand people's issue with "cheese". What's the big deal? Isn't it a normal part of the game? Why do so many people have such a strong negative emotion regarding it? This is the biggest thing that surprises me about the TL forums. For a forum that's after creating a competitive environment, why is there such a negative outlook on cheese? Even the long term, "better" players get very upset about cheese(idra is the easiest example, and he's supposedly the best foreign player). I honestly do not understand why. I feel it's a pretty big part of the game to understand these mechanics as well. Well, that's just me. Can anyone tell me what the big deal is?

I'm trying to think of it in equivalence to go terms, but I honestly can not find a good example. I definitely do not get annoyed at someone playing tengen first move, or when the white player in a high handicap game tries to be extra aggressive. I have more issues with people playing longer than they should, and underestimating someone. In terms of starcraft, a cheese is the exact opposite. It's not about underestimation at all. In fact, in a lot of cases it's used when the opponent is not comfortable with a long drawn out game against certain races/people. I really do not get the negativity.

I think MountainGo above did a pretty good job explaining why people have issues with it. While there is skill involved in executing cheese strategies (e.g: proxy 2-gate requires that you micro your zealots very well), it doesn't bring out the "main" skill of SC which is macro, and that only comes from the mid-game and beyond. Instead of macro, it relies on the element of surprise.

+, it just hurts more...I can't explain it, but it just feels like a slap in the face when you get 7-pooled and lose, similar to when you lose to a button-masher in a fighting game.

[schultz]

Cheese always goes with wine Don't bring the wine.

Haha, awesome. Got a good laugh. Thanks.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

I was actually going to post this, and some body beat me to it.

I think MountainGo above did a pretty good job explaining why people have issues with it. While there is skill involved in executing cheese strategies (e.g: proxy 2-gate requires that you micro your zealots very well), it doesn't bring out the "main" skill of SC which is macro, and that only comes from the mid-game and beyond. Instead of macro, it relies on the element of surprise.

+, it just hurts more...I can't explain it, but it just feels like a slap in the face when you get 7-pooled and lose, similar to when you lose to a button-masher in a fighting game.

Take a look at the link emeraldemon posted. It's from a book/write-up by a guy and it's called "Playing to Win" and it talks about all of this in a very constructive manner.

This is some thing that I have a lot of problem with, in all honesty. I have a tendency to get mad at people when I lose to some thing that is "cheap" in a game (or at least what I consider cheap). Often times I'm mostly mad at myself, but I still have that problem and in the end, it is all how you approach it. It is some thing that I try and work on whenever I am playing competitive games.

In the end, if a game allows some "cheese" (by however many people define it that way, one person, or even vast majority of the player base) it is still a viable strategy. It is a part of the game, and until it is strictly forbidden (i.e. patched or in some other manner stopped from happening) it can, and will, be used. In the end it goes back to what MountainGo says. If it is bad enough, people will stop playing the game and move on to some thing else. That doesn't make it any less a viable strategy.

Edit - wow I must be tired. Actually read MountainGo's post a few more times and realized I've just said exactly the same thing over again. Oh well.

And on another unrelated note, my mind has just been blown.

Day[9] and Tasteless are brothers?!! What what what? Haha, I should have know that...they even sound so much alike. They even look similar now that I think about it...hah. Wow. And I'm enjoying the vid, thanks for posting that.

Edit 2 - And just as I edit this Araban posts again...nice timing.

[Solomon]

Well, as they say..."what goes around comes around". Played an ~1100d, PvP. He has 1 gate and an assimilator in his base, so I assume all is fine and dandy (first mistake there: a core or a 2nd gate didn't go up around the usual time; also, he didn't put the probes into the assimilator which should have raised a red flag). So I decide to send out a CB'd stalker into his base to see what's up. Next thing you know a flood of zealots come barging into my base and I leave, half in frustration and half in confusion. I thought it was very peculiar how he got so many zealots off of 1 gate so I went and checked the replay...turns out the assimilator was just to fake me out and that he built a proxy 2 gate nearby, so he had 3 gates pumping zealots with 1 inside and 2 outside his base. It was quite the peculiar cheese which emphasizes deception rather than surprise. I think I might go back to building near the ramp in PvPs instead of next to my Nexus after this game.

[Tooveli]

I have more issues with people playing longer than they should, and underestimating someone. In terms of starcraft, a cheese is the exact opposite. It's not about underestimation at all. In fact, in a lot of cases it's used when the opponent is not comfortable with a long drawn out game against certain races/people. I really do not get the negativity.

I'm not so sure about this. I've now been cannon rushed 3 times. The first time I was completely confused and didn't respond at all and lost. The second and third times I scouted it early (I'm always scouting around my own base just in case), pulled 4 probes and easily stopped it. What really annoyed me was that both cannon rushes were seriously all-in (the player just sent more probes or built more pylons and cannons and let them get destroyed) yet the player did not resign. In both cases they walled off with lots of cannons and teched to void-rays. I'm pretty sure the best response when you can't immediately win but have a huge advantage is to expand. So we end up with a 15 minute game that I've won after 5 minutes. Because I want to absolutely make sure I win, it doesn't end until their 40 food void ray army dies to my 120 food blink stalkers and I've destroyed half their base. I feel pretty outraged that they thought they could win.
I can only imagine them thinking:

"well the cannon rush failed and I lost about 700 minerals on it, maybe if I spend another 450/600 to make sure I don't lose right now I can tech to void ray/DT and my opponent is probably too stupid to have built detection/anit-air/'an army that would take me out before I take him out anyway' by that time - he's probably just left his extra 1150 minerals sat in the bank while he's looking down at the keyboard trying to find the key to make more probes. I can win this!"

Grrr. I enjoyed stopping the cannons, but those extra 10 minutes I'd like to get back.