Loss against a 12K

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hailthorn011
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Loss against a 12K

Post by hailthorn011 »

I can sort of see what I did wrong in this game, but I was hoping some stronger players could tell me what they see. Good/Bad

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judicata
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Re: Loss against a 12K

Post by judicata »

Ack! I didn't get past move 2. Did you play this after you read the review for your last game? No diagonal approaches! :evil:

(Caveat: there may be special circumstances in which it is a good move, but not in the opening, and certainly not the second move).
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Chew Terr
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Re: Loss against a 12K

Post by Chew Terr »

Just a few thoughts.

You and your opponent both seem to like playing diagonal to 4-4 star point stones. There's a problem with this, strategically. You've probably heard that you should not let your opponent 'hit the head' of two stones. Well, your opponent can choose to take the corner solidly, then hit your stones on the head.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . W 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


This is just one possibility, but it has your opponent owning the corner, working towards an extension to the right, and your stones are already down to three liberties. You could cut or hane to start a fight, but since your opponent already has the prime position and more liberties, you're starting the fight at a disadvantage. This disadvantage let you capture those 5 stones in the bottom left, for example. That's why, while it is available, people often start approaching the corner from a little farther away.

Most of your problems are small and tactical issues (such as the net at H15). Play more, or practice more life and death problems. and you'll start to see that sort of thing better. The only other thing I'll recommend is to keep checking on your groups and seeing if they're weak. For example, consider the group at H8 at the end of the game. Compare the result if you get to play K6 versus if your opponent gets to play K7. While your stones will likely survive regardless, that little bit of extra strength will shrink your opponent's potential future territory, prevent your opponent from getting to chase you, and even threaten to outright kill the neighboring three stones with a followup at J5. Keeping all of your groups healthy will help you play a LOT stronger of a game.

Again though, most of the problems you showed in this game are minor, and will go away with a little experience.
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daniel_the_smith
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Re: Loss against a 12K

Post by daniel_the_smith »



Hope it's not too harsh :)
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Monadology
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Re: Loss against a 12K

Post by Monadology »

I'm a weaker player, but:

At move 72 you didn't capture, instead leaving the two stones at the top vulnerable to the ladder he made. The extension you made instead feels cramped to me. Capturing he could have made you fill in your eye, but at least you would have stayed connected and would have avoided becoming trapped.

Move 102 doesn't seem to do much. One above or one below would either help seal him in or attack his shape.

Why not connect solidly at Move 104 with M14?

A lot of your plays feel 'cramped' to me. Like the extension at Move 20, the connection at 104, the extension at 72, 108, 80 etc...
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judicata
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Re: Loss against a 12K

Post by judicata »

I've reviewed your game - a few more comments:

First, black should not have resigned.

Some general thoughts:

Watch your cutting points. In the first several moves, black leaves way too many cutting points where white is strong. And white is strong because black makes moves that force white to become stronger. Although it is fine to play "lightly" and leave cutting points in certain circumstances, don't do it without a strategy. And certainly don't do it when there are a lot of enemy stones nearby.

Don't play small moves. Several times, you try to save a stone or two, or get an extra 5 points when there are huge points on the board. Try to ask yourself these questions, especially with the first 50 moves: (1) Do I have any weak groups? (2) Does my opponent have any weak groups? (3) Are there big points on the board that make a bunch of points? If you have a weak group that might die, the move is urgent and you play it first. Otherwise, play a big move.

31 - White's approach here is bad. You should just attach at Q3, which almost secures your corner and takes a liberty away from white. Then you can hane if white extends.

35 - The net is very important. Study this shape and remember it. Also know that it doesn't always work. (For example, if black had a stone at F14).

38 - It is good that you are seeing moves like this, but this is waaaay too early. It just makes white stronger, white you get a few points in gote.

48 - YES! Good move.

82 - White is dead anyway - black should just protect the cut at H7.
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Re: Loss against a 12K

Post by hailthorn011 »

daniel_the_smith wrote:

Hope it's not too harsh :)


Not at all. It's good to know a majority of my problems are only minor ones that I can iron out over time. I think reviewing this game helped me play better in my next game because I won 186+. So, I think I just need to play more. As for life and death problems, I do those every day. I think most times is that there are still a few situational things that I fail to recognize, but hopefully as I play more I'll start to notice them. But thanks for the insight.

@ Judicata: I think one of my primary weaknesses is my Fuseki. I might be wrong in that, but I really feel like my opening is my biggest problem.

@ Monadology: You're dead on. I noticed a lot of these things when I reviewed it afterward. But then again, I go back to what I said to Judicata, my opening is a weakness in my play that resulted in the cramped play. Perhaps if I can improve my opening, my play overall will improve.
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Re: Loss against a 12K

Post by hailthorn011 »

daniel_the_smith wrote:

Hope it's not too harsh :)


And thanks for the extensive review. That helped a lot. I would have been ashamed of a lot of those moves if I hadn't been laughing so much. But it really was useful commentary.
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daniel_the_smith
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Re: Loss against a 12K

Post by daniel_the_smith »

hailthorn011 wrote:It's good to know a majority of my problems are only minor ones that I can iron out over time.


I feel mean for saying this, but #2, 4, 8, 12, 18, 20, 34 and 38 (just of the moves I reviewed) are not minor mistakes. They range in value from maybe 1/4 of a handicap stone to a full handicap stone. 34 is almost worse than passing.

The themes to those mistakes are playing in unimportant areas of the board, saving/attacking unimportant stones, and playing stones that don't work together/making too many groups/uncoordinated groups.

Iron those out ASAP and you'll be much stronger.

And don't play any more armpit hits until you're 3k, ok?

hailthorn011 wrote:And thanks for the extensive review. That helped a lot. I would have been ashamed of a lot of those moves if I hadn't been laughing so much. But it really was useful commentary.


You're welcome :)
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Shaddy
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Re: Loss against a 12K

Post by Shaddy »

daniel_the_smith wrote:
And don't play any more armpit hits, ok?

Fixed!
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daniel_the_smith
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Re: Loss against a 12K

Post by daniel_the_smith »

Lol, true. But they are correct occasionally, I even stumbled across a joseki that included one the other day. Never in an open board, of course.
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Re: Loss against a 12K

Post by hailthorn011 »

daniel_the_smith wrote:
hailthorn011 wrote:It's good to know a majority of my problems are only minor ones that I can iron out over time.


I feel mean for saying this, but #2, 4, 8, 12, 18, 20, 34 and 38 (just of the moves I reviewed) are not minor mistakes. They range in value from maybe 1/4 of a handicap stone to a full handicap stone. 34 is almost worse than passing.

The themes to those mistakes are playing in unimportant areas of the board, saving/attacking unimportant stones, and playing stones that don't work together/making too many groups/uncoordinated groups.

Iron those out ASAP and you'll be much stronger.

And don't play any more armpit hits until you're 3k, ok?

hailthorn011 wrote:And thanks for the extensive review. That helped a lot. I would have been ashamed of a lot of those moves if I hadn't been laughing so much. But it really was useful commentary.


You're welcome :)


Understood. (I hope). I guess I have a hard time, still, realizing which stones are important. However, do you think you could play a teaching game with me at some point in time? I know you're way above my level, but I might gain some insight by seeing how you play in a given situation.
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judicata
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Re: Loss against a 12K

Post by judicata »

hailthorn011 wrote:

@ Judicata: I think one of my primary weaknesses is my Fuseki. I might be wrong in that, but I really feel like my opening is my biggest problem.


Nah,I wouldn't necessarily say that. That is, don't go off and start studying fuseki right now - it will probably just make you weaker. Just try to not leave weak groups, and try to think about how big a move is. Keep a good attitude, and you'll steadily get stronger. Come back to this game when you are about 10kyu and you'll laugh at white's moves (in addition to your own).

I'd also be up for playing a teaching game with you if you want (though if there is a player stronger than me willing to help, you should do that - I'll watch :) ).
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daniel_the_smith
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Re: Loss against a 12K

Post by daniel_the_smith »

hailthorn011 wrote:Understood. (I hope). I guess I have a hard time, still, realizing which stones are important. However, do you think you could play a teaching game with me at some point in time? I know you're way above my level, but I might gain some insight by seeing how you play in a given situation.


Some guidelines:
* If one or two of your stones are cutting or separating your opponent, they're probably quite important.
* A single stone of yours that isn't touching anything and is an extension from another stone/group of yours is probably somewhat important.
* A stone of yours that's touching a group of theirs is probably worthless.


I'd be happy to play a teaching game, but I've been busy and haven't been online too much lately. If you see me, feel free to ask. (lavalamp on KGS)
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hailthorn011
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Re: Loss against a 12K

Post by hailthorn011 »

daniel_the_smith wrote:
hailthorn011 wrote:Understood. (I hope). I guess I have a hard time, still, realizing which stones are important. However, do you think you could play a teaching game with me at some point in time? I know you're way above my level, but I might gain some insight by seeing how you play in a given situation.


Some guidelines:
* If one or two of your stones are cutting or separating your opponent, they're probably quite important.
* A single stone of yours that isn't touching anything and is an extension from another stone/group of yours is probably somewhat important.
* A stone of yours that's touching a group of theirs is probably worthless.


I'd be happy to play a teaching game, but I've been busy and haven't been online too much lately. If you see me, feel free to ask. (lavalamp on KGS)


I'd welcome a teaching game from you! I don't want to waste your time or anything, though. I guess a part of my thing is I get all this advice and then fail to implement it. It's like it's going in one ear and out the other.

@Judicata: Hm, either way is fine with me. I'd really just like to improve.

I think my biggest problem is that I'm not studying hard enough. I can't buy books, and I'm not too good at implementation (as I said above).
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