Dinerchtein vs van Zeist

[Kirby]

I like Japanese byo-yomi.

It is completely irrelevant how much you love Japanese byouyomi, but the fact is that 7-dans do not have enough experience so that they could place hundreds of stones in single tournament on go board within 5 sec marginal (that is factual requirement for 1x20sec etc. Japanese byouyomi (e.g. in EGC). Accidents happen and they are very likely, because there are about million things that can go wrong and cause immediate loss by time. Some of them are separate from the player's themselves.

Also, accidental timeloss is complitely different thing than loss because of time pressure. Time pressure is of course what we want so that people finish within schedule. But we do not want accidents, when people are quarter second too slow in placing go stone AND pressing the clock.

You have a set number of time to play a move for each byo-yomi period. If you don't want any accidents, just glance at your clock now and then.

[shapenaji]

*Sigh*, if only the chess players could see us now...

They have no "Black/White Time, Counting, Begin"

Somehow they manage to survive several transitions(If I remember correctly, in many tournaments they have 3 main time sections to the game) without a single Sirius Robotics-issue Clock.

(It is their pleasure to count for you, and their satisfaction to then not count for you with the knowledge of a job well-done)


As far as counting systems, I have no problem with J-Byoyomi, (mostly because I almost never leave my main phase), but Fischer strikes me as a system that lets players choose how to allocate their time to the game, and does not force them to use one kind of time for the opening and middle-game and another for the endgame.

J-Byoyomi seems to me to be prejudiced against strong endgame players. It doesn't treat all sections of the game equally, and I fault it for that.

[lorill]

Somehow they manage to survive several transitions(If I remember correctly, in many tournaments they have 3 main time sections to the game) without a single Sirius Robotics-issue Clock.

In my time the "standard" was :
2h for 40 moves, then 1h for 20 moves, then 1h sudden death.

Looks a lot like canadian overtime, but with longer times.

Games started at 14h, and most were finished before 19h or 20h. The rare ones that were still running were continued in the morning.

[dchriz01]

How can it be avoided and what are they going to do about it? I too, agree that this sort of thing shouldn't really happen in such a very important game. I found this very crucial situation.

[Joku]

Does anyone know EGF Rules Commission decision on this topic?

[Pyoveli]

There is no decision yet.

[RobertJasiek]

We have been working on a decision and it looks like there will be some soon.

[kokomi]

Since Japanese byouyomi causes lots of confusions, we should use absolute time controls with Fischer (or preferebly bronsteinian if available) increments. If i recall correctly Ing clock can even handle Fischer time control. It is just ridiculous that we have had in EVERY major tournament (that I know) where Japanese byouyomi is used some problems with accidental time losses. Some are just losses for righteous winners, other has more difficult aspects that cause lot of harm for social relationships (i.e. rules are intentionally broken).

How does Fischer time setting solve this problem here? The sound will magically come out when it knows the clock is running Fischer time not byo-yomi?

[kokomi]

I like Japanese byo-yomi.

It is completely irrelevant how much you love Japanese byouyomi...

It's not irrelevant if a majority of players would prefer to play with Japanese byoyomi. The same can be said it is irrelevant how much you love bonus time. You can bring it up with the EGC if you want to change the time rules used at congress and see if a majority support it.

Personally, I agree with Kirby.

I agree with you and Kirby. I can use other time setting, but there's nothing wrong or unconvenient to use byo-yomi. In fact, I just love it with Go.

Off-topic: Second time I agree with Kirby other than solutions of L&D in the forum

[shapenaji]

Since Japanese byouyomi causes lots of confusions, we should use absolute time controls with Fischer (or preferebly bronsteinian if available) increments. If i recall correctly Ing clock can even handle Fischer time control. It is just ridiculous that we have had in EVERY major tournament (that I know) where Japanese byouyomi is used some problems with accidental time losses. Some are just losses for righteous winners, other has more difficult aspects that cause lot of harm for social relationships (i.e. rules are intentionally broken).

How does Fischer time setting solve this problem here? The sound will magically come out when it knows the clock is running Fischer time not byo-yomi?

No, it solves it by taking away the (apparent) need for sound entirely. The time control never changes into a different phase, and so the same time economization takes place during the entire game.

In chess, the popular clock is the Chronos (a fantastic clock, leaves the ing clock in the dust), and though it has the functionality, even when playing super fast, it's rarely ever used audibly.

Personally, I hate the audible alert, it's distracting to the other player, and serves mostly to disrupt my own thought process. You have a visual display, use it.

[zinger]

In chess, the popular clock is the Chronos (a fantastic clock, leaves the ing clock in the dust), and though it has the functionality, even when playing super fast, it's rarely ever used audibly.

Personally, I hate the audible alert, it's distracting to the other player, and serves mostly to disrupt my own thought process. You have a visual display, use it.

Of course, the advantage of the audible warning(s) is that you can keep your eye on the board. For people who use visual context when reading (I do), looking away can disrupt the thought process.

Personally I think a simple beep when a certain time remaining is reached, is appropriate, and not too intrusive to other players. In a Fischer timed tournament game, a 30 or 60 second warning would suit me fine. Others might prefer something less. This is configurable on the GT2 and can be agreed by the players before the game starts, or mandated by the tournament.

[kokomi]

Shapenaji: One still needs something to remind him/herself when he/she is running short of time even using Fischer timing or whatever timing, if the lost on time is because that he/sher (van Zeist, here) failed to notice the time there.

These are totally two different issues.

[Javaness]

Remember the game Mingjiu Jiang lost on time to that young Canadian kid (Gan S..)a year or more ago? Late middle game, with a secure lead, but he lost. He didn't notice that Byoyomi was starting, I think he expected KGS to make a beeping sound if this happened.

Seems that some players like audible noises.

There was also some incident with Feng Yun about 2 or more years prior to that one. Se was unfamiliar with the clock and there was some argument resulting from that. It was a fancy digital clock I think

[shapenaji]

Shapenaji: One still needs something to remind him/herself when he/she is running short of time even using Fischer timing or whatever timing, if the lost on time is because that he/sher (van Zeist, here) failed to notice the time there.

These are totally two different issues.

Why? You don't need audible confirmation when you're using too much time per move during your main time... you're expected to economize your time.

With J-Byoyomi, the inability to economize your time at the end of the game makes some form of audible warning more desirable (since you only have 30 seconds per move, you can't play a few quick moves to gain thinking time), you're more likely to run into the hard barrier.

In Fischer, the economization never stops, and so no audible warning should be necessary. Unless you plan on having the audible warning all game.

I guess that's the bulk of my concern, if you're going to have an audible warning, it should be given all game. The atmosphere of the game should not suddenly change in the endgame.

[Liisa]

Remember the game Mingjiu Jiang lost on time to that young Canadian kid (Gan S..)a year or more ago? Late middle game, with a secure lead, but he lost. He didn't notice that Byoyomi was starting, I think he expected KGS to make a beeping sound if this happened.

This is good reminder how hard Japanese byouyomi actually is to control even for experienced players. There are just too many rare events that may go wrong and what will lead to unnecessary time losses.