61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)

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Zwergesel
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Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)

Post by Zwergesel »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm64 Prisoners: W=0, B=2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O X . X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . O X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . O . X , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . O . X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If I block this way, black gets the tripod group, which is alive:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O X . X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . O X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 3 . X . X X . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . 2 O , . . O . X , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . . B 1 O . . . O . X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So I will try a different move and hopefully will be able to kill.
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Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)

Post by Redundant »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm65 Prisoners: W=0, B=2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O X . X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . O X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . 1 O O . . O . X , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . O . X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

KO.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm65 Prisoners: W=0, B=2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O X . X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . O X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . 2 . . X . X X . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | 6 1 O O . . O . X , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | 7 . X . O . . . O . X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . 3 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Trigger:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm65 Prisoners: W=0, B=2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O X . X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . O X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . 2 . . X . X X . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . 1 O O . . O . X , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . O . X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)

Post by Zwergesel »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm68 Prisoners: W=0, B=2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O X . X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . O X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . . X . X X . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . O . X , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . O . X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After seeing the trigger I wish I had not played B5. B2 might have been more promising. I thought I could kill him, but it is tricky and I don't see anything better than a ko. However I don't have any ko threats while he has quite a few that I wouldn't want to ignore, so I guess I'll have to let him live small and take sente.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=2
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . O .
$$ | . 5 . O . . . .
$$ | 4 O . . X . X X
$$ | . X O O . . O .
$$ | 6 . X 3 O . . .
$$ | . X 2 1 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------[/go]

Alive. But probably best play for white.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=2
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . O .
$$ | . . . O . . . .
$$ | . O b . X . X X
$$ | 3 X O O c . O .
$$ | 4 5 X a O . . .
$$ | . X 2 1 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

This is the ko. He has an internal ko threat at 'a' and I am in trouble if I lose the ko due to 'b' and 'c'.
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Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)

Post by Redundant »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm69 Prisoners: W=0, B=2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O X . X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . O X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . . X . X X . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . O . X , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . O . X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Still according to plan.
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Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)

Post by Zwergesel »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm70 Prisoners: W=0, B=2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O X . X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . O X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . . X . X X . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | 1 X O O . . O . X , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . O . X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Trigger:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm70 Prisoners: W=0, B=2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O X . X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . O X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . . X . X X . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | W X O O . . O . X , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | 2 3 X . O . . . O . X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I had another idea, assuming that he tries to use :b4: as his first ko threat:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=2
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . . X . X X . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | 1 X O O b . O . X , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | 2 3 X 4 O . . . O . X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | 5 X X O 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

a then allows me to kill his group with a ko and b lets him live in gote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=2
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . . X . X X . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | O . O O 1 . O . X , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . O . X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | O X X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 . X 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I would be happy with this result, so I'm going to start the ko and see whether he tries a different ko threat first or uses the internal one.
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Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)

Post by Redundant »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm70 Prisoners: W=0, B=2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O X . X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . O X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . . X . X X . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | O X O O . . O . X , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | 2 3 X 4 O . . . O . X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Trigger:
I take the ko if you protect, and I capture D2 if you finish the ko.
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Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)

Post by Zwergesel »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm74 Prisoners: W=2, B=2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O X . X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . O X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . . X . X X . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | O . O O . . O . X , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . O . X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | 1 X X O 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Trigger:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm74 Prisoners: W=2, B=3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O X . X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . O X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . . X . X X . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | O . O O 5 . O . X , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . O . X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | O X X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

(Prisoner already added)


I was wrong. I can't even kill with a ko, because of this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=2, B=2
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . . X . X X . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | O . O O 5 . O . X , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . O X X O 4 . . O . X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | O X X . X O 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 . X 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Not that I wanted to kill anyway. It's better to just take sente here.
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Redundant
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Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)

Post by Redundant »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm74 Prisoners: W=2, B=3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O X . X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . O X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . . X . X X . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | O . O O 5 . O . X , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . O . X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | O X X . X O 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Play kikashi before living.
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Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)

Post by Zwergesel »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm80 Prisoners: W=2, B=3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O X . X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . O X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . . X . X X . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | O . O O O . O . X , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . O . X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | O X X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I don't see how :b79: helps. :scratch:
Unless I'm missing something, it should play out like this now:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=2, B=3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O X . X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . O X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . . X . X X . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | O . O O O 5 O . X , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . O X X O 2 3 . O . X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | O X X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 . X 4 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

possibly without the :b2: :w5: exchange.
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Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)

Post by Redundant »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm80 Prisoners: W=2, B=3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O X . X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . O X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . . X . X X . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | O . O O O . O . X , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . O . X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | O X X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Trigger:
You protect, I live.

This worked out fine for me. I'll live with my next move.
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Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)

Post by Zwergesel »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm82 Prisoners: W=2, B=3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O X . X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . O X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . . X . X X . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | O . O O O . O . X , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . O X X O . 1 . O . X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | O X X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I have to block this way or else I cannot catch his single stone.
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Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)

Post by Redundant »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm82 Prisoners: W=2, B=3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O X . X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . O X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . . X . X X . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | O . O O O . O . X , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . O X X O . O . O . X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | O X X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This went well, but I'm unsure if the loss of sente was worthwhile. (Which seems to be the theme of this game ...)
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Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)

Post by Zwergesel »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm82 Prisoners: W=2, B=3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O X . X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . O X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . . X . X X . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | O . O O O . O . X 3 . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . O X X O . O . O . X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | O X X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think I have a cut here now. Will post the sequence later.
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Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)

Post by Redundant »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm82 Prisoners: W=2, B=3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O X . X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . O X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . . X . X X . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | O . O O O . O . X O . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . O X X O . O . O 4 X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | O X X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Have to cut.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm82
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O X . X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . O X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . . X . X X . 5 . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | O . O O O . O 9 X O . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . O X X O . O 6 O 4 X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | O X X . X O X 8 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O X . X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . O X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 1 3 . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . . X . X X X O 2 4 . O O . . . . |
$$ | O . O O O . O O X O . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . O X X O . O X O X X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | O X X . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think I'll be fine, although this weakens my bottom a lot.
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Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)

Post by CSamurai »

Redundant wrote:
Have to cut.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm82
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O X . X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . O X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . . X . X X . 5 . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | O . O O O . O 9 X O . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . O X X O . O 6 O 4 X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | O X X . X O X 8 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O X . X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . O X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 1 3 . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . . X . X X X O 2 4 . O O . . . . |
$$ | O . O O O . O O X O . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . O X X O . O X O X X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | O X X . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think I'll be fine, although this weakens my bottom a lot.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O X . X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . O X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O a . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 6 1 3 . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . . X . X X X O 2 4 . O O . . . . |
$$ | O . O O O . O O X O . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . O X X O . O X O X X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | O X X . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This would be what I call a plan that accomplishes nothing. 5 would be better at A if the goal is to save the group in the center. Even so, before committing to something like this, you should really evaluate, is it worth it to strengthen white's center, and undercut a group. Backing up..


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O X . X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . O X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 7 . 5 . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . . X . X X . 1 4 6 . O O . . . . |
$$ | O . O O O . O . B W 3 . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . O X X O . O 8 O 2 X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | O X X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If things proceed normally, black has room to make life, and white has managed to steal a bit of territory.

alternately..
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O X . X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . O X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 7 . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . . X . X X . 1 4 . . O O . . . . |
$$ | O . O O O . O 5 B W 2 . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . O X X O . O 6 O 3 X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | O X X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This line is interesting. Black can't atari with 5 due to the weakness at :bc:, so instead he uses the aji to make possible eye space, and 7 lets black run out. While the lower group is almost surrounded now, there's still room in either variant to make life. If black continues according to his plan, white should be pleased all around.
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