A question about goproblems.com

[Kirby]

People are practicing traversing by looking at the node on the board each time. This is a crutch.

Why?

Because keeping the traversal in your head is an essential skill you need for the game. When you are in an actual game, you cannot play the sequence out - you have to store it in your head. So it's important to grow that skill.

You can think of the example of a math exam where no calculators are allowed. When you study for the exam, do you always study with a calculator? I don't think you'll have good results. You can't use a calculator during the exam, so you'd better study accordingly.

[Kirby]

I guess if I argue with myself, ...

Do you ever read out these conversations in your head, considering the other possible variations and points of view before posting on the board?

Or do you just quickly post your random thoughts on the board, so sure you've got the correct variation, just to see which direction the conversation will turn?

You know I'm 30kyu at posting on the forum. If I wanted to be a dan-level poster, I should practice the art of thinking ahead, more.

[Bill Spight]

...

FWIW, my opinion is that low level tesuji, like the snapback, are best learned by observation and explanation, rather than by trying hard to figure them out. (Trying to figure them out may have other rewards, however. ) At the dan level, however, I think it is the opposite. Dans see a lot. Learning to recognize a specific shape and a combination of suji will not be of much benefit, whereas learning to read the position out will usually be of greater value.

OK, I'm a liar. I'll get back into the discussion.

I'm not sure I understand what is being distinguished here. Is there a finite number of shapes that somebody has to learn before being a dan player such that they can get to the level of "seeing a lot"?

Yes. (The set of shapes {along with the suji} to learn is not definite. You can't say that it is the same for each player. But it is not infinite, either. )

Why is there a line between dan players and kyu players in terms of how they should learn?

There is no line, or if there is, it is quite fuzzy.

Seeing is better than reading. By the time you get to be a dan player, however, learning to see new shapes and suji runs up against the law of diminishing returns. Better to improve reading skill.

IMO. of course.

[Monadology]

Because keeping the traversal in your head is an essential skill you need for the game. When you are in an actual game, you cannot play the sequence out - you have to store it in your head. So it's important to grow that skill.

You can think of the example of a math exam where no calculators are allowed. When you study for the exam, do you always study with a calculator? I don't think you'll have good results. You can't use a calculator during the exam, so you'd better study accordingly.

How it is stored in their head is different. For one thing, the reason why a calculator would not work is because you're not even "traversing the tree" with a calculator at all! A more appropriate example would be using an abacus, or writing the problem out.

Secondly, no one has suggested that not reading at all be practiced even in tsumego. Marcus has even said that he reads things out.

What you still haven't established is that it is necessary to calculate with as much effort and depth as possible the trees in tsumego in your head in order to be able to calculate in your head in a game effectively. Without establishing this, you can't say that it's a crutch to employ a different learning method that involves playing things out.

[Kirby]

Because keeping the traversal in your head is an essential skill you need for the game. When you are in an actual game, you cannot play the sequence out - you have to store it in your head. So it's important to grow that skill.

You can think of the example of a math exam where no calculators are allowed. When you study for the exam, do you always study with a calculator? I don't think you'll have good results. You can't use a calculator during the exam, so you'd better study accordingly.

How it is stored in their head is different. For one thing, the reason why a calculator would not work is because you're not even "traversing the tree" with a calculator at all! A more appropriate example would be using an abacus, or writing the problem out.

Secondly, no one has suggested that not reading at all be practiced even in tsumego. Marcus has even said that he reads things out.

What you still haven't established is that it is necessary to calculate with as much effort and depth as possible the trees in tsumego in your head in order to be able to calculate in your head in a game effectively. Without establishing this, you can't say that it's a crutch to employ a different learning method that involves playing things out.

I think you missed the point of my example.
If you don't read it out in your head, during your study, you are removing a restriction that is normally in place while you're playing a game. Hence, it's a crutch - just as using a calculator is during your study if you can't use it during the test.

To pass the test, it is effective to hone all skills required when you take the test.

[Sverre]

I think you missed the point of my example.
If you don't read it out in your head, during your study, you are removing a restriction that is normally in place while you're playing a game. Hence, it's a crutch - just as using a calculator is during your study if you can't use it during the test.

To pass the test, it is effective to hone all skills required when you take the test.

When I study mathematics, if I get to a tricky bit I feel completely justified in looking up the subject in a textbook, never mind using a calculator. In general I don't believe that studying is best done by mimicking exam conditions. If I am studying mathematics then I need to learn the theory, I've already mastered arithmetic and if using a calculator helps me get study faster then it will help me on the test.

I am under no obligation to simulate a real game as closely as I can when I am studying, I rarely ask stronger players for help while I am playing but I feel free to ask them to review a game when I am studying. Is this using a crutch? Perhaps. Does it make me weaker?

[Kirby]

...

I mostly agree with Kirby when it comes to train the visualization of variants, but when it comes to cram the basic forms and shapes that should immediately suggest ideas I believe an other approach is needed. This talent is better trained by lots of easy problems that should be solved on time. Preferably accompanied by some kind of punishment if you don't manage to solve them in 5-10s. Pain is a great motivator.

Sure. I agree that it can be good to mix in some easy problems to train shape knowledge. But there's a difference between solving an easy problem in your head first with confidence, and guessing the answer and just clicking. I think it's good to always think beforehand. Easy problems can help expose you to many shapes, and hard ones need deeper traversal.

[Kirby]

I think you missed the point of my example.
If you don't read it out in your head, during your study, you are removing a restriction that is normally in place while you're playing a game. Hence, it's a crutch - just as using a calculator is during your study if you can't use it during the test.

To pass the test, it is effective to hone all skills required when you take the test.

When I study mathematics, if I get to a tricky bit I feel completely justified in looking up the subject in a textbook, never mind using a calculator. In general I don't believe that studying is best done by mimicking exam conditions. If I am studying mathematics then I need to learn the theory, I've already mastered arithmetic and if using a calculator helps me get study faster then it will help me on the test.

I am under no obligation to simulate a real game as closely as I can when I am studying, I rarely ask stronger players for help while I am playing but I feel free to ask them to review a game when I am studying. Is this using a crutch? Perhaps. Does it make me weaker?

If you come to rely on it, yes. Your reviewing friend isn't with you in a game, so you need to learn to solve problems without his/her help.

Using a calculator occasionally could have some benefit, but I think it's essential to get in some practice without using the calculator.

[Monadology]

I think you missed the point of my example.
If you don't read it out in your head, during your study, you are removing a restriction that is normally in place while you're playing a game. Hence, it's a crutch - just as using a calculator is during your study if you can't use it during the test.

To pass the test, it is effective to hone all skills required when you take the test.

I did not miss the point of your example. I never drilled doing mental arithemetic. I learned to do arithmetic just fine by writing it out.

Which isn't to say I always wrote everything out except when taking a test. When I got the hang of it, it was natural to just start doing it in my head "Oh 7 plus 5 that's 12", but outside of the tests I never placed any restriction on myself or tried to focus on doing it in my head.

I do not think it is the kind of skill that needs drilling to that degree for everyone. I do not think it is like a muscle, where you have to exercise the muscle directly if you want to improve it.

I think our main difference is that I think human learning is much weirder and more complicated than you do.

[Sverre]

I did not miss the point of your example. I never drilled doing mental arithemetic. I learned to do arithmetic just fine by writing it out.

Which isn't to say I always wrote everything out except when taking a test. When I got the hang of it, it was natural to just start doing it in my head "Oh 7 plus 5 that's 12", but outside of the tests I never placed any restriction on myself or tried to focus on doing it in my head.

I do not think it is the kind of skill that needs drilling to that degree for everyone. I do not think it is like a muscle, where you have to exercise the muscle directly if you want to improve it.

I think our main difference is that I think human learning is much weirder and more complicated than you do.

This.

I don't really get the analogy because mental arithmetic is easy compared to reading, and if you're doing math problems you will [1] learn enough mental arithmetic to suffice, even if you use pen and paper or a calculator when calculating by hand would be boring.


[1] Well, I did. People learn differently, which I think is the central point Monadology are I are trying to make in this thread.

[xed_over]

when I was in school, I took calculus and physics in the same semester. The professor in the calculus class was trying to teach us how to solve differential equations by finding their derivative. We had whole chalk boards filled with calculations.

The next hour in physics class, the professor told us the shortcut so we could solve the physics problems in our lab without getting bogged down with the mathematics.

It was good and necessary to solve the differential equations the hard way to understand the what was going on, but after a while, we just used the shortcut (pattern recognition) so we could move on to solving more complicated problems.

Easy problems can help expose you to many shapes, and hard ones need deeper traversal.

the hard ones are simply various combinations of the simpler fundamental problems we already learned.

learning the basic problems will help eliminate the shear amount of reading you might otherwise need to do to solve a harder problem.

[daal]

@Mondology.

There is an element in your arguments that I like. Why drive on the highway when you would rather go by bike? This is legitimate. Maybe you prefer to feel the wind in your hair. Maybe your prefer food to oil as a source of energy. Maybe you find cars pretentious.

There are plenty of good reasons to go by bike, but if the distance to travel is long and the bike path meandering, getting there faster is not one of them. Now you might say that this is untrue, because you don't even have a car, and if even if you did you would leave it parked in the garage. If this is so, it might be wise to exclude getting there fastest from your goals.

If we equate getting there fastest with becoming a strong go player, and this is what you want to do, it might be worth reevaluating your opinion of cars. Surely no one will stop you from going by bike, but if you think you will arrive sooner than the rest of us, then I want to see your bike.

I myself feel rather uncomfortable behind the wheel of a car, but gradually I'm getting better at it, and I take pleasure in the fact that I can use a stick shift. I still like to ride my bike, but that's when my destination is finding a good metaphor, and usually they aren't that far away. Maybe you should reserve your bike for finding a good argument.

[daal]

@daal:

I think your riding your bike in the attic.

Yeah, I had the feeling I wasn't getting anywhere.

[Kirby]

Well, I'm in a hotel waiting for the second day of the Cotsen today. I won my first two games, but had a bitter and unexpected loss for my third game.

I really hate losing.

And I came to an obvious realization: The way to become stronger - so as not to lose your third game at the Cotsen due to a silly and shameful invasion which I should not have made - is not to argue about the ways to become stronger or to convince other people of your method on an Internet forum.

So let us each to our own study methods, and become stronger.

[daal]

Well, I'm in a hotel waiting for the second day of the Cotsen today. I won my first two games, but had a bitter and unexpected loss for my third game.

I really hate losing.

And I came to an obvious realization: The way to become stronger - so as not to lose your third game at the Cotsen due to a silly and shameful invasion which I should not have made - is not to argue about the ways to become stronger or to convince other people of your method on an Internet forum.

So let us each to our own study methods, and become stronger.

And all this time, I thought we were working on our posting skills. As to your game, I'd suggest visualizing the possible results of a silly invasion before making it - though on the other hand, it is easier to see once the stones are on the board.