#73: Hazushi(9 kyu) vs. Rubin427(7 kyu)

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Re: #73: Hazushi(9 kyu) vs. Rubin427(7 kyu)

Post by Hazushi »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . B . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Edit: Fixed a problem with Diagram in the hidden section needed to add a [ at the beginning before go]

Now there are a few courses to take here.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . T . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . Q , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . Q . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . T . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As I see the board currently there are four points that need attention all marked by a Triangle.

White has played a reducing move, but with this move the stone at C-13 can soon become usefull. This I am not quite worried about.

The mark at Q-17 is somthing that will need to be solved soon as the corner is not completely secure.
And the mark at R-5, this is a big point.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now to the current area since it does not look to be in good outcome to play elsewhere.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . b a X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . O c . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . d e . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


"a" through "e" are ideas that come to mind when answering white.
"c" is the best idea that comes to mind when first surveying the board I use it to establish a decent moyo on the right side ( which can be easliy invaded or reduced which I am not fond of so I will avoid that path ) and apply pressure to the stone played. But I will lose sente (If I even have it) in a few moves on that path.
"d" and "e" Look to be influencial moves, my playing style has a high base on influence at the beginning of the game but either of those two moves can give white a wall and possibly a bit of territory close to the top left.
Which leave us with "a" and "b". I am good at winning a game easily if I can keep my opponent toward the centre and "a" and "b" do just that.
"a" feels to slow of a move, "b" on the other hand if my opponent ingnores I can easliy play and to a high possibility deam his stone useless.

Variation on "b" I see something like this I think. I have seen this variation on the top wall in 2 of Dosaku's games ( I think and not exactly on the top wall it was the bottom and right I think ) and used to daunting effect. Move 7 though in the first part of the variation, in his games were "elsewhere moves". I choose to play move 7 there because it gets a stone in there, which hopefully is not to late.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 3 1 0 X 5 8 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . 2 O 4 6 9 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Continues

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 2 1 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 5 X X O X X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . 4 O O O O X 7 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



I am ok with this outcome, the effect should be quite understandable and it is the course I will choose to take. If white strays from course then it will be disasterous for them I think.
Only a child can ask questions that the wise can not answer.
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Re: #73: Hazushi(9 kyu) vs. Rubin427(7 kyu)

Post by dfan »

:shock:

You have two local responses to a shoulder hit like this.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . B X . . .
$$ . . . O , . . .
$$ . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . X . . .
$$ . . . O B . . .
$$ . . . . . . . .[/go]

I guess other moves have been played on occasion, but one of these is correct literally 99% of the time.

You know the saying "Even a moron connects against a peep"? You just created a situation in which effectively he peeped your one-space jump, and you ignored it instead of connecting.

The good news is that this is a really easy bad habit to break!
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Re: #73: Hazushi(9 kyu) vs. Rubin427(7 kyu)

Post by judicata »

Hazushi wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . b a X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . O c . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . d e . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


"c" is the best idea that comes to mind when first surveying the board I use it to establish a decent moyo on the right side ( which can be easliy invaded or reduced which I am not fond of so I will avoid that path ) and apply pressure to the stone played. But I will lose sente (If I even have it) in a few moves on that path.


Not that I'm much stronger than the players, but here I read "this builds good potential, but my opponent can reduce or invade the potential, so I don't like it." :scratch: You can always say this about potential (call it moyo, or whatever), especially early in the game. Also, there's no need to lose sente after playing 'c' and if black does lose sente is should be because he's developed a nice framework, left a weak white group for attacking later, or both.
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Re: #73: Hazushi(9 kyu) vs. Rubin427(7 kyu)

Post by rubin427 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . O W . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Whatever happens, I sure hope it's sente for white. that's the underpinnings of my entire longterm strategy. I want R7.

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Re: #73: Hazushi(9 kyu) vs. Rubin427(7 kyu)

Post by Hummingbird Cyborg »

I wouldn't have considered Hazushi's response at all. And then Rubin takes advantage of it in a way that makes sense to me, but then his follow up diagram for why he played that move makes no sense to me at all. I understand a bit about how the dan players feel when watching my games because I see moves that make so little sense to me that I can't understand why they were even considered.

Of course, when I look at my games at that strength, I see an equal number of what look like absurd moves to me today. I can't wait til that happens to me at my 3kyu moves.
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Re: #73: Hazushi(9 kyu) vs. Rubin427(7 kyu)

Post by dfan »

I don't know if this is right, but it's the first thing I would have looked at, because hey, in effect White just peeped and Black ignored it:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . a 2 b . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X 1 X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

and because both ladders work, White can play either a or b. He plays the other one when Black ataris his first stone, e.g.:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 4 3 2 5 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X 1 X 7 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Black's nice framework has been totally split.
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Re: #73: Hazushi(9 kyu) vs. Rubin427(7 kyu)

Post by Hazushi »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . X B . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I am still on the same course as before. Though slightly altered.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . X 1 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . O O 2 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Only a child can ask questions that the wise can not answer.
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Re: #73: Hazushi(9 kyu) vs. Rubin427(7 kyu)

Post by Aphelion »

Hummingbird Cyborg wrote:
I wouldn't have considered Hazushi's response at all. And then Rubin takes advantage of it in a way that makes sense to me, but then his follow up diagram for why he played that move makes no sense to me at all. I understand a bit about how the dan players feel when watching my games because I see moves that make so little sense to me that I can't understand why they were even considered.

Of course, when I look at my games at that strength, I see an equal number of what look like absurd moves to me today. I can't wait til that happens to me at my 3kyu moves.


Why do you say that Rubin's move makes sense to you? As Dfan noted, the most obvious move is to cut immediately and take advantage of the fact that White has both ladders. Now after this push, Black's previous move looks like a good move to jump ahead, and the cut no longer works.
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Re: #73: Hazushi(9 kyu) vs. Rubin427(7 kyu)

Post by rubin427 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . W . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


There is this voice in my head telling me - "it's the opening, play the big open areas!" (west side). I can't. I am too absorbed in these local fights. I am too greedy... Does this make me weak? Maybe.

Anyhow, here's what I am thinking.
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Re: #73: Hazushi(9 kyu) vs. Rubin427(7 kyu)

Post by Hummingbird Cyborg »

Aphelion wrote:
Hummingbird Cyborg wrote:
I wouldn't have considered Hazushi's response at all. And then Rubin takes advantage of it in a way that makes sense to me, but then his follow up diagram for why he played that move makes no sense to me at all. I understand a bit about how the dan players feel when watching my games because I see moves that make so little sense to me that I can't understand why they were even considered.

Of course, when I look at my games at that strength, I see an equal number of what look like absurd moves to me today. I can't wait til that happens to me at my 3kyu moves.


Why do you say that Rubin's move makes sense to you? As Dfan noted, the most obvious move is to cut immediately and take advantage of the fact that White has both ladders. Now after this push, Black's previous move looks like a good move to jump ahead, and the cut no longer works.


I guess that I misspoke about that. I meant that I would have done dfan's move too, but that rubin's move was sente but his sequence to exploit it was wrong in his sgf diagram. If black ignored his move, he'd get to take a stone, but not if he cut like he showed.

His move is a move that is pushing from behind that will encourage black to fix the weakness that he just created with a strange play. Anyhow, that's what I meant.
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Re: #73: Hazushi(9 kyu) vs. Rubin427(7 kyu)

Post by Hazushi »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



My original plan was this....
My original plan was this....

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$m10 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 3 1 0 X 5 8 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . 2 O 4 6 9 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$m20 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 2 1 3 . . . 8 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 5 X X O X X O . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . 4 O O O O X 7 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is why I skipped playing a moyo by hane'ing the stone at J-16. I can finish the corner and put a stone in at the R-7 area. This variation I picked for 2 reasons.
1 I am bad at preventing or working against reduction and invasions so I avoided the moyo.
And 2 beacuse building the moyo was an out come of not reading far enough ahead. ( As I feel. )



If I did produce a moyo my opponent could soon take the corner or fill in at R-7 or play in the corner.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . O 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . 5 . . 8 . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But I dont think my opponent will allow 7 so will play there instead of at R-7 on move 6....

or

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . O 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . 5 . . T . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

With this there is a easy invasion / reduction point at the triangle and the white stone in the corner drastically reduces the moyo.



or

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . O 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . 8 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is a possible outcome but I doubt my opponent would have allowed it to happen.





Current plan
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . B . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



or

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . X X . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Only a child can ask questions that the wise can not answer.
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Re: #73: Hazushi(9 kyu) vs. Rubin427(7 kyu)

Post by rubin427 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . W , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


seems favorable. mostly.

though my hopes and dreams of a Moyo are all gone...

amnal
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Re: #73: Hazushi(9 kyu) vs. Rubin427(7 kyu)

Post by amnal »

though my hopes and dreams of a Moyo are all gone...


Wait...what? I hope rubin427 is saying this humorously!

If black can take away your 'hopes and dreams' of a moyo in a single forced sequence, they were pretty rubbish dreams. And you shouldn't feel sad that your dreams are gone, you should feel sad that you didn't see how unattainable they were in the first place.

That sounds really harsh, but...it's true :razz: .

In any case, you can never say 'I will have a moyo'. You can only ever say 'I will offer my opponent to let me make a moyo in return for territory. If he refuses, I will take compensation elsewhere and leave him with no territory of his own'. If your plan does not include the latter option, it's a pretty poor plan. In *this* case, white's stones seem a bit randomly scattered and black is very strong, so black's invasion seems okay - and because white has put his eggs in one battered basket, he will have himself to blame if they smash everywhere when it breaks.

On the other hand, it's somewhat forgiveable since it's a handicap game, and it isn't at all obvious to me that white isn't about to use his influence stones for what they're really for - attacking. There is no need for a moyo if you can just eat some stones and take territory instead.
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Re: #73: Hazushi(9 kyu) vs. Rubin427(7 kyu)

Post by Hazushi »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Possibly this will happen....

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , P . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I am in favor for this, this will apply serious pressure to the marked stone and gets me into white's territory.

---------------------------------------------------------------


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . X X . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . a . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



If what I think the possibility is happens I can still cut at "a" this will cause a fight that I will be willing to do. But after 4 my opponent has a free move that I do not know where will be played, depending where I may want to settle the top right corner at "b" or I am also thinking of playing at "c" at this no matter which side my opponent approaches I can jump along the wall claiming definable territory.
Only a child can ask questions that the wise can not answer.
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Re: #73: Hazushi(9 kyu) vs. Rubin427(7 kyu)

Post by dfan »

I don't know if it's the best move, but the first point that leaps to my mind is this extension-pincer combination:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I hope that White at least considered it. As it is, he's begging Black to attack the single side stone.
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