September DDK Swiss

Monadology · Post by **Monadology** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:27 am

Thanks for the commentary. :salute:

psk31 · Post by **psk31** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:48 am

Yes, thank you for the commentary. I have some general questions but they'll have to come later since I'm on lunch break now.

Maere · Post by **Maere** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:14 pm

Maere and Rafa: some thoughts on your second game.

Once again, thanks for the detailed review. You bring some positions in a brand new perspective (like your considerations on move 15 or move 31. After you said it, it suddenly becomes obvious :mrgreen:

).

psk31 · Post by **psk31** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:40 pm

Once again to thank Dusk Eagle for the comments. I was curious about a couple of things for anyone to answer, instead of H14 at move 14 (the horrible move), what would have been the better alternative if I was trying to protect the upper left? Or should I have gone elsewhere?

I would have never thought of the A19 or T1 (later) in the variations. Are these common? Especially A19 so early in the game.

At move 110 my move to N9, thought I was trying to begin the upper edge of some eye space for the lower right center. What would have been the better move?

So much to learn.

Thanks.

Dusk Eagle · Post by **Dusk Eagle** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:05 pm

instead of H14 at move 14 (the horrible move), what would have been the better alternative if I was trying to protect the upper left? Or should I have gone elsewhere?

I'm not exactly sure what you're protecting the upper-left from. It's pretty secure at this point. Black can still invade at the 3-3 point, but it would be very bad for him at this point to do so as the small territory he will get from such an invasion will not be worth the huge influence you get.

One possible variation (probably the simplest):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 3 4 8 O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 9 2 O 7 . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 0 . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O X . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O . . 4 . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Your influence here is worth more than the territory black gets, so it's not worth stopping this invasion just yet. But when you do want to stop this invasion, this works:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So, instead of H15, I would suggest J14 as the logical local followup, but it might be even better to just tenuki entirely, as this area is not urgent.

psk31 wrote:I would have never thought of the A19 or T1 (later) in the variations. Are these common? Especially A19 so early in the game.

No, these are horrible moves :razz:

. The reason I placed them there is to show that the move actually played in the game was not actually necessary for defense. Even if the black or white played a total pass move (like A19/T1 are), there was no threat where the defensive move was played, and thus the defensive move was unnecessary.

At move 110 my move to N9, thought I was trying to begin the upper edge of some eye space for the lower right center. What would have been the better move?

One of the major problems with N9 is that, when black responds, his N10 stone is effectively strengthened. Since you then proceed to try to save the group above N10, your N9/O10 exchange only made it easier for black to kill you (though to be honest, that group was dead as leaves anyway, but the fact that you tried to save it indicates to me that you didn't realize this).

Instead, I like the move that you played at N4 later. After black responds to that, I might try a move around M8 or so. It's not easy for me to suggest a perfect way to go about living here, but that's not to say it can't be done. Either way though, the game was already over by this point.

psk31 · Post by **psk31** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:51 am

Thanks again Dusk Eagle. :salute:

That helped. And I'm glad to know I wasn't crazy when I saw the A19/T1 moves and wondered what in the ... Knew in the back of my mind those weren't right but maybe there was some secret knowledge I hadn't gained yet.

Sometimes I will try to save a dead group just to see if I can (learning curve). Usually it just ends up confirming to me that yep, they're dead.

Now back to studying to realize when I have an area settled but I don't recognize that as well. :study:

SinK · Post by **SinK** » Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:39 am

Could we get Stephany93 vs. noodley and iambadatgo vs. kukula played over the weekend. Today was the deadline and your holding the whole thing up guys.

noodley · Post by **noodley** » Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:17 am

Stephany93 and I have our games scheduled for 10AM GMT on Saturday.

Stefany93 · Post by **Stefany93** » Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:51 am

Sorry Sink, me and noodley will play tomorrow, we promise. :tmbup:

noodley · Post by **noodley** » Sat Sep 25, 2010 2:31 pm

Stefany93 and I played our games today. Sorry for the delay.

Both games ended up with large capture races to decide the winner.

Noodley(B) - Stefany93(W), B+71.5

Stefany93(B) - Noodley(W), W+29.5

Suji · Post by **Suji** » Sat Sep 25, 2010 7:26 pm

Hey, SinK. I'd be willing to participate in the next one. This looks like a lot of fun.

Stefany93 · Post by **Stefany93** » Sun Sep 26, 2010 3:07 am

Suji wrote:Hey, SinK. I'd be willing to participate in the next one. This looks like a lot of fun.

Yeah, esp. when you lose :lol:

Suji · Post by **Suji** » Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:26 pm

Stefany93 wrote:
Suji wrote:Hey, SinK. I'd be willing to participate in the next one. This looks like a lot of fun.

Yeah, esp. when you lose

We'll just have to see, won't we?

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:13 am

Noodley and Stefany, regarding your second game: Good game by both, but some suggestions...

7: I don't like it. It pressures your opponent to take R10, and then when you stretch up, to hit the head of your two stones. This move is called an 'armpit hit' (like a shoulder hit, but underneath), but I've only seen a few times when I really like it. Basically, I consider it this way: Bruce Wilcox considers diagonal plays like this as contact moves, so all of the rules about not contacting until you know what you want from it still apply. While there are exceptions to that rule (especially in the case of using shoulder hits for reduction or attaching for probes and such), you really need to have a plan for it to make it worthwhile.

8: Again, consider diagonal plays attachments, which means responding is urgent. I like R10 more than Q11, just because then you get to hit her stones on the head if she tries to do similarly. However, blocking the center off for thickness is just fine, if not my stylistic choice. Either of those two options, however, are huge.

9: This is an interesting move, but not my favorite. Moves on the second line of the board are generally too low-priority for the opening. Again, if I had my way, 9 would take Q11, since your opponent left it for you.

10: While this is the big side, I'd prefer to take something like E16, since it blocks the 3-4 corner stone's primary direction.

11: Your opponent played a far approach, which makes pincers less threatening. I would rather take points with the corner enclosure, then after white makes a base, use your sente to play on the bottom and mess up white's hopes there.

12: Because you approached wide and pincers were less powerful, you don't need to worry as much when pincered. This may just be because of my style, but I would counter-pincer around C8, and have E16 and E13 as miai. I'm not sure if that's right, but know that you're under less pressure because your pincered stone has a bit more space.

14: Good, prevents much of a base

15: While this is good because any amount of base would be better than none, I would prefer to take E16, to gain framework while fighting. If white takes E16, his stones are much safer.

18: Starts a fight near your weak stones, which could be hurt as a result. Because of your local weakness, I'd give up on dreams of the corner, take the other hane, and feel safer.

24: While what you played is often a vital point of this shape if it's closer to the corner, it doesn't work here. The shape looks like you're forcing your opponent to separate and cut off your stones, which she'll be happy to do. It looks like you ought to lose this corner fight, so it's time to cut your losses. Perhaps take F17, since it's kind of forcing, but start considering what you can get on the outside.

45: You cannot let your opponent split you in two with G9. You should take it yourself.

76: It's a little risky, but I would probably not play this. If you need it, it's urgent, but if you can kill those four stones without it, this is a wasted pass-move.

85: I like C18 here. Makes it hard for white.

117: I like R5. A white refutation is hard to see.

127: Not worth giving up sente. Look for bigger areas of conflict, like O12 or MAYBE S5.

130: Well done, you use sente well in this following sequence.

216: I know you're feeling bloodthirsty, but you can play more safely. L1 seems to keep L2 dead with no risk to it.

Stefany93 · Post by **Stefany93** » Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:42 am

Chew Terr wrote:Noodley and Stefany, regarding your second game: Good game by both, but some suggestions...

7: I don't like it. It pressures your opponent to take R10, and then when you stretch up, to hit the head of your two stones. This move is called an 'armpit hit' (like a shoulder hit, but underneath), but I've only seen a few times when I really like it. Basically, I consider it this way: Bruce Wilcox considers diagonal plays like this as contact moves, so all of the rules about not contacting until you know what you want from it still apply. While there are exceptions to that rule (especially in the case of using shoulder hits for reduction or attaching for probes and such), you really need to have a plan for it to make it worthwhile.

8: Again, consider diagonal plays attachments, which means responding is urgent. I like R10 more than Q11, just because then you get to hit her stones on the head if she tries to do similarly. However, blocking the center off for thickness is just fine, if not my stylistic choice. Either of those two options, however, are huge.

9: This is an interesting move, but not my favorite. Moves on the second line of the board are generally too low-priority for the opening. Again, if I had my way, 9 would take Q11, since your opponent left it for you.

10: While this is the big side, I'd prefer to take something like E16, since it blocks the 3-4 corner stone's primary direction.

11: Your opponent played a far approach, which makes pincers less threatening. I would rather take points with the corner enclosure, then after white makes a base, use your sente to play on the bottom and mess up white's hopes there.

12: Because you approached wide and pincers were less powerful, you don't need to worry as much when pincered. This may just be because of my style, but I would counter-pincer around C8, and have E16 and E13 as miai. I'm not sure if that's right, but know that you're under less pressure because your pincered stone has a bit more space.

14: Good, prevents much of a base

15: While this is good because any amount of base would be better than none, I would prefer to take E16, to gain framework while fighting. If white takes E16, his stones are much safer.

18: Starts a fight near your weak stones, which could be hurt as a result. Because of your local weakness, I'd give up on dreams of the corner, take the other hane, and feel safer.

24: While what you played is often a vital point of this shape if it's closer to the corner, it doesn't work here. The shape looks like you're forcing your opponent to separate and cut off your stones, which she'll be happy to do. It looks like you ought to lose this corner fight, so it's time to cut your losses. Perhaps take F17, since it's kind of forcing, but start considering what you can get on the outside.

45: You cannot let your opponent split you in two with G9. You should take it yourself.

76: It's a little risky, but I would probably not play this. If you need it, it's urgent, but if you can kill those four stones without it, this is a wasted pass-move.

85: I like C18 here. Makes it hard for white.

117: I like R5. A white refutation is hard to see.

127: Not worth giving up sente. Look for bigger areas of conflict, like O12 or MAYBE S5.

130: Well done, you use sente well in this following sequence.

216: I know you're feeling bloodthirsty, but you can play more safely. L1 seems to keep L2 dead with no risk to it.

We are very grateful, Chew! You are a great man!

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