very very messy.... (11k vs 12k)

Tyson2011 · Post by **Tyson2011** » Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:40 pm

very very messy, i have only played a handful of games since coming back after a two year hiatus, so feel free to be as rigorous as possible with my play

Dusk Eagle · Post by **Dusk Eagle** » Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:58 pm

Here is a quick review.

19 should be around r10 - that is the correct way to extend from the shimari you have there.
23 does nothing.
24 by him is a bad move at this point of the game. You could definitely have left it. However, from watching this it is clear you have absolutely no clue how to handle the monkey jump - better read up on it now: http://senseis.xmp.net/?monkeyjump and http://senseis.xmp.net/?MonkeyJump%2FIntoHighPosition
81 - You can cut him at r10 successfully.
93 is aji keshi - you can no longer cut him at r10. I'm sure you could read out that this cut doesn't work.
189 - empty triangle. K13 is a billion times better. Also, if you had read this sequence out, you could see that it ends in disaster for you.

Tyson2011 · Post by **Tyson2011** » Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:08 pm

thank you for your post, out of curiousity, why is r10 better at move 19? not saying you are wrong, but at my level i dont see much difference, please elaborate?

thank you for your help on the monkey jump....yeahh i went about that completely wrong, this is helpful

aji keshi means? sorry im bad with terms at the moment...

Dusk Eagle · Post by **Dusk Eagle** » Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:36 pm

Sure, I'll explain why r10 is better.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . a , B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . B . . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Notice on the top right is the proper extension, and on the bottom is your extension. In the bottom, your marked stone is on the third line. Third line moves are a way of securing the territory you have - they do not respond well to trying to add more territory onto them. On the other hand, fourth line moves do not secure territory very well, but are good if you can get a follow-up move in farther down. In the bottom, you are extending from a third line stone, whereas in the top, you have a fifth line stone supporting your extension. Also, 'a' becomes a good follow-up move for you.

It may not appear obvious right now, but trust me - when you have two stones on top of each other like this, their natural direction is to start extending the other way and make your framework "box-like" - it is far better to have a "box-like" framework (without investing too many moves...) than a flat piece of territory.

Aji keshi is a move which forces your opponent to fix their own bad aji - that is, it forces them to fix a weakness in their shape. The example in your game is a good one. If you had played R10, then after S10 R9 S9 Q9, you will capture either white's one stone or white's three stones on the bottom. However, after playing P10, it forced white to play Q9, and now your cut at R10 no longer works. So, instead of P10, you should have played R10, or played elsewhere and saved R10 for later. By playing P10, you can never play R10 ever again.

I hope that wasn't too convoluted. I can't quite seem to make what I'm trying to say clear right now, but hopefully you get the idea. If not, say so! I or someone with better communication skills than me ( :razz:

) will help you out

.

Tyson2011 · Post by **Tyson2011** » Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:44 pm

i can understand you on the aji keshi subject, but your fuseki logic confuses me greatly :/, i have much growing to do.

KGS 4 kyu · Post by **fwiffo** » Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:16 pm

The best book on the opening is Opening Theory Made Easy by Otake Hideo. It's absolutely worth your time.

Tyson2011 · Post by **Tyson2011** » Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:24 pm

will look into that, thank you very much

judicata · Post by **judicata** » Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:34 pm

fwiffo wrote:The best book on the opening is Opening Theory Made Easy by Otake Hideo. It's absolutely worth your time.

I'm a big fan of "In the Beginning" also. Just throwing that out there.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:25 am

Hi Tyson,

Tyson2011 wrote:your fuseki logic confuses me greatly :/

You want the bigger box.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . , . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ {LN C15 C10} $$ {LN D17 D10} $$ {LN P17 P10} $$ {LN R16 R10} $$ {LN C15 D17} $$ {LN C10 D10} $$ {LN P17 R16} $$ {LN P10 R10}[/go]

(Edited after learning {LN} from fwiffo.

)

KGS 4 kyu · Post by **fwiffo** » Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:12 am

Or exploiting the new diagram features (arrows added to show the enclosures' primary direction of influence):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ sad flat box vs. happy tall box $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X C . . . . . , . . . . C . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ {LN C15 C10} $$ {LN D17 D10} $$ {LN P17 P10} $$ {LN R16 R10} $$ {LN C15 D17} $$ {LN C10 D10} $$ {LN P17 R16} $$ {LN P10 R10} $$ {AR D16 H16} $$ {AR Q16 Q12}[/go]

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:37 am

Again to summarize, walls 'cast a shadow'. You want to put your extension at the very tip of the shadow. That means, the taller the wall, the further the safe extension. Of course big frameworks are better if they're not unreasonable, so you want the wall that casts the best shadow, plus the proper extension. When looking for a wall's 'direction of play', I just see which side has the bigger shadow.

Edit: Fwiffo makes really pretty diagrams, but I like metaphors =)

Tyson2011 · Post by **Tyson2011** » Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:55 am

ahh...i think that makes a little more sense

, thanks guys!

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:23 pm

Just 'cause no one else seems to mention it... 9 here feels funny to me. I don't really play that family of joseki, but I'd be tempted to press at Q7, extend or just directly tenuki and approach another corner.

...And the resulting framework on the lower board after your next couple of moves feels fragile to me, but I don't feel I'm strong enough to comment in detail on that.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:53 pm

Hi fwiffo,

The tags {LN} and {AR} are nice!
What other secret keywords are missing from the thread,
"How to make diagrams", viewtopic.php?f=5&t=226

Is there a complete list of keywords somewhere?

Thanks.

KGS 4 kyu · Post by **fwiffo** » Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:06 pm

It uses the same code as Sensei's library, so you can take a look at the Sensei's page on how diagrams work. That page misses a few options related searching, but you can read about them on the Sensei's help page on position search. We don't have a position search function here, but you can use those options in your diagrams.

Life In 19x19

very very messy.... (11k vs 12k)

very very messy.... (11k vs 12k)

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Re: very very messy.... (11k vs 12k)

Re: very very messy.... (11k vs 12k)

Re: very very messy.... (11k vs 12k)

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Re: very very messy.... (11k vs 12k)