Prokovich game

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Harleqin
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by Harleqin »

I think the protection would be better like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X X a . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . O . O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . 1 . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . c . . . O b . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . d . . . . . X . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
A good system naturally covers all corner cases without further effort.
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dfan
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by dfan »

mitsun has it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm84 ACTUAL GAME: Move 84. Points from prisoners: B 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . O 1 O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by Chew Terr »

I like either P15 or SOMETHING in the bottom left quadrant =/. Can't figure out the right point for the latter, for the life of me.
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by Marcus »

Black is pretty solid everywhere. I think this would be a good time for O8, maybe? It strikes me as a good way to continue to reduce the White central framework. Again, just my gut instinct.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm85 MY THOUGHT: Move 85. Points from prisoners: B 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . O O O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . 1 . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

The contest now has become about who can get center territory. There are two groups with no definite eyes, and they will give both side a little leverage to make territory while attacking.

There are four major points in the center which both sides want:
H11 or nearby: The two eyeless groups would like to lean on each other. It is sente for both. The first one to do it gets influence in the center.
G7: Sente for white to invade the beginnings of black's moyo, and threaten the black dragon. Gote for black, but good for territory.
O8 or nearby: The juncture of two impending moyos. Gote for both, but big for both.
P15: Maybe sente for white to hurt the corner, good for white territory. Gote for black but provides nice anchor for reducing white territory in the middle or the right.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm85 Move 85. Points from prisoners: B 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . O O O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . S . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . S . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . S . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O S . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Of those four spots, I count 2.5 sente moves for white, one sente move for black. So it seems that black's short-term strategy should be to take the sente move, then play his best gote.


I'm not sure what that best gote is for move :b87:, but my prediction for :b85: is this sente move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm85 Move 85. Points from prisoners: B 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . O O O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O B . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Marcus wrote:Black is pretty solid everywhere. I think this would be a good time for O8, maybe?...

If true, it means that it is a good time to attack something.
If both are solid everywhere, them maybe it is time for territory grabbing.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

BTW, at first glance, turning at N17 may look like sente. It is not:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc If black 2 tenukis, a and b are miai.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X X 1 . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O b . O O O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |[/go]
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Magicwand
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by Magicwand »

Marcus wrote:Black is pretty solid everywhere. I think this would be a good time for O8, maybe? It strikes me as a good way to continue to reduce the White central framework. Again, just my gut instinct.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm85 MY THOUGHT: Move 85. Points from prisoners: B 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . O O O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . 1 . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


i can think of one move that is better than yours without any question :)
let's broaden our mind and see bigger pictures
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm85 MY THOUGHT: Move 85. Points from prisoners: B 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . O O O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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dfan
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by dfan »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm85 ACTUAL GAME: Move 85. Points from prisoners: B 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . O O O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

This can't be a pro move!! Dfan is making things up again.
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Dusk Eagle
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by Dusk Eagle »

What makes you say that :scratch: ?
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Dusk Eagle wrote:What makes you say that :scratch: ?


It is a 10-point gote move on the second rank. White now has all kinds of forcing plays in the center.


If I were white, I'd start with this one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm85 My prediction
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . O O O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . 2 . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It secures about as many points as dfa/H/H/Hblack's last move and it is sente.
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dfan
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by dfan »

Next time I should totally say "during the game I will make one fake move and you have to figure out which it is."
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hyperpape
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by hyperpape »

I wonder if the move helps to blunt white's potential invasions of the corner?
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dfan
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by dfan »

Joaz has the right idea:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm86 ACTUAL GAME: Move 86. Points from prisoners: B 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . O O O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . 1 . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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gaius
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by gaius »

Now I'd really want to connect like below. Even though it's going to earn me the "slowest move ever" award, it just gets so much nasty aji out of the way, any other move would feel like a half measure to me. After black plays there, he has his hands free to destroy white's center.

Still... isn't it amazing that we're already talking about black having to destroy white's center?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm86
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . O O O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . 1 . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O 2 . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
My name is Gijs, from Utrecht, NL.

When in doubt, play the most aggressive move
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