Bad beat stories.

Post by **Solomon** » Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:33 am

I think it's safe to say that all Go players have, at some time or another, experienced a "bad beat", a poker terminology for a situation where a person who has a vastly superior hand over his opponent(s) loses anyways, despite the odds. So the analogous situation for Go is where a person who has a vastly superior position/major lead over his opponent loses anyways. These kind of games also tend to be more memorable than others (0.5 points come a close second?).

So what are some of your bad beat stories? If it was played online, be sure to post the SGF if you still have it!

I'll start with a recent one (less than a few weeks ago). I was playing an online game against aguilar1 (Fernando Aguilar) in a 0.5 komi game where I took Black on one of my 5d accounts.

Up to move 88 things were looking okay for me and I was holding up on my own. I didn't make any major mistakes, but did play a few slack moves here and there so I was behind by a teeny bit. Sirens went off on my 88th move though, which I played on the last second of my byoyomi period. It went from this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Move 88 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O O . X . . . . . X . . X . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . X X X . . . . O . | $$ | . . X X . . . O X X O O O X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . X X X X O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O . . O O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O O . X . . . B . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X X X O X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X X X O O O O X . . X . O . . . | $$ | . X O O X O . . . . X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . O . . O . O . . . . . X O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...to this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Few moves later $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O O . X . . . . . X . . X . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . X X X . . . . O . | $$ | . . X X . . . O X X O O O X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . X X X X O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O . . O O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O O . X . . O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X X O . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . X X X O X X . . . . O . W . | $$ | . X X X X X O O O O X . . X . O . X . | $$ | . X O O X O . . . . X . . X O . X . . | $$ | . O . . O . O . . . . . X O O . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...which had me sink further behind, bad news since endgame is my weakest area. Ah, but that's only the beginning. As we entered endgame, I tried to play more efficiently to try and make up for my losses on the lower right. I was also a bit, again as they say in poker, "on tilt". Needless to say, I neglected an important group and ended up in a situation where my central group was in major danger:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Move 138 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O O . X . . . . . X X X X . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . O X O . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . X X X . X O O O . | $$ | . X X X . . . O X X O O O X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . X X X X O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O . . O O O O X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X X X O . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , O O O X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X X X . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . O . . . W . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O O . X X . O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X X O X X O O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . X X X O X X O . . . O . O . | $$ | . X X X X X O O O O X . O X . O . X . | $$ | . X O O X O . . . . X . X X O . X . . | $$ | . O . . O . O . . O X . X O O . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So not only was I ~10+ points behind, but now I was about to die extravagantly with 150+ people watching. Fantastic. In fact, all White had to do was let me live in gote and the game was his anyways, I guarantee it. /men's warehouse

I'll leave the SGF here so you can see the conclusion, kibitz and my ID removed :cool:

:

So tell me your stories

.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:44 am

In your defense, Fernando Aguilar does like playing this way and going killing stuff

This accounts for a large number of my games

For example, I'd made a mess of one of my DGS games, my opponent got greedy, handed me a 15-20 lead by letting me invade his only decent territory, and then in trying to play an efficient endgame I totally forgot my group at the bottom needed defending if it couldn't get out of trouble through shortage of liberties. My opponent hadn't forgot, and just killed it!

tj86430 · Post by **tj86430** » Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:48 am

Being avid poker player, I'm very familiar with Bad Beats :lol:

However, I find it odd to use the term with Go (or any other games with complete information), since there is no element of luck involved. If you lose from a winning position, you have yourself to blame for it, whereas in Poker Bad Beat refers to unlucky cards (usually losing after getting all-in as a significant favorite) and not your own bad play.

Post by **Solomon** » Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:06 am

tj86430 wrote:...since there is no element of luck involved...

Sometimes I wonder. If I had read your post a year ago I'd wholeheartedly agree that there is absolutely no element of luck whatsoever in Go. However, now I leave myself with a bit of skepticism.

In the chaos after 138, one interesting comment I read in the kibitz was "let's see how well b read this out.". Did I read it all out? No sir. My aji senses were tingling, and I knew we were both at the entrance of a dark tunnel once he decided to commit and go for the kill. For me to somehow end up victorious at the end of the tunnel...to me, feels like a situation where luck was involved (but in a different sense than poker).

...or maybe I need to hurry up and sleep. But hopefully this will bring up even more interesting discussion.

tj86430 · Post by **tj86430** » Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:07 am

Helel wrote:If you find it odd you may wish to reconsider your (in my view) all too restricted definition of luck.
(or you may not, it's up to you if you want to be unreasonable )

We have discussed similar view's many times over in the poker community. Of course, if you like, you can consider that e.g. 100 meters sprint has an element of luck - Usain Bolt may have a really bad day or even an injury. But I'd like to stick to more restricted definition.

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:51 am

Oh, ... you bet.

I played White and started quite okay-ish, granting my oponent a side and me a moyo, which he kind of invaded:

[img]http://www.letsshareit.net/files/53/Go1.png[/img]

I killed and he invaded again:

[img]http://www.letsshareit.net/files/53/Go2.png[/img]

I completely screwed things up:

[img]http://www.letsshareit.net/files/53/Go3.png[/img]

..and oversaw a double-atari later on:

[img]http://www.letsshareit.net/files/53/Go4.png[/img]

In the end, I won by 0.5 points because he didn't fought out a Ko.

Luck? For sure!

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Tue May 11, 2010 6:55 am

I had to dig this one out... Actually I wanted to post this game in the Embarassing-Go-Moments-Thread... Anyway I was Black and screwed up a won game the worst way imaginable. Enjoy :cry:

[img]http://www.letsshareit.net/files/53/Go1_2.png[/img]

High chance of winning.

[img]http://www.letsshareit.net/files/53/Go2_2.png[/img]

In my opinion, won game.

[img]http://www.letsshareit.net/files/53/Go3_2.png[/img]

First big (_B_I_G_) screw up, but still ahead.

[img]http://www.letsshareit.net/files/53/Go4_2.png[/img]

30 sec SD for me / 10 minutes for my oponent.

[img]http://www.letsshareit.net/files/53/Go5_2.png[/img]

Enormous screw up, resignation.

HermanHiddema · Post by **HermanHiddema** » Tue May 11, 2010 10:50 am

This is a game that I played a few years ago, when I was 2 dan. My opponent was 6 dan.

Of course, given the strength difference, that's not an impossible position to come back from, but still

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Tue May 11, 2010 10:57 am

That's an evil joseki that one Herman

Post by **Solomon** » Wed May 12, 2010 1:15 am

topazg wrote:That's an evil joseki that one Herman

Another interesting variation of that joseki that's full of twists and turns is this one, though this variation is not joseki, but a very complicated hamete. I've played it quite a lot a year ago or so, but because there are so many variations where both sides can easily screw up, I think I've had it blow up and destroy my position more often than it did my opponent's :-?

:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X 1 5 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O 2 X . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . . O 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Harleqin · Post by **Harleqin** » Wed May 12, 2010 3:41 am

I'd be interested in the correct refutation of that, Herman. ;-)

Li Kao · Post by **Li Kao** » Wed May 12, 2010 4:53 am

I'm white. One of my friends (1k) commented on this game(before I lost) "I puked a little"

I killed him yeah

: Ahead by 100 Points :); Loss190-1.png (119.54 KiB) Viewed 12729 times

Arghhhhh. Now he is ahead by 190 Points :'(

: Behind by 190 Points :'(; Loss190-2.png (123.92 KiB) Viewed 12729 times

Dusk Eagle · Post by **Dusk Eagle** » Wed May 12, 2010 1:34 pm

Araban wrote:
topazg wrote:That's an evil joseki that one Herman

Another interesting variation of that joseki that's full of twists and turns is this one, though this variation is not joseki, but a very complicated hamete. I've played it quite a lot a year ago or so, but because there are so many variations where both sides can easily screw up, I think I've had it blow up and destroy my position more often than it did my opponent's :
$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X 1 5 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O 2 X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . . O 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X 1 5 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O 2 X . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . . O 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think the correct play from here is:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 8 7 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 0 6 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O O X 5 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X X 3 | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O X X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X X X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 1 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is the variation that was given in Kogo's when I looked it up two days ago. However, I've also had a 6d friend say that the refutation was :b7:

at 'a' in the first diagram above, which threatens to net one of the two groups. However, when another friend of mine and me analyzed it later, we were unable to find how it worked if white played his next move to save his five-stone group, so I'm not sure that he was correct.

Post by **Solomon** » Wed May 12, 2010 2:39 pm

Dusk Eagle wrote:However, I've also had a 6d friend say that the refutation was at 'a' in the first diagram above, which threatens to net one of the two groups. However, when another friend of mine and me analyzed it later, we were unable to find how it worked if white played his next move to save his five-stone group, so I'm not sure that he was correct.

As I've mentioned earlier, I don't know the hamete very well and have only scratched its surface. However, a while back I have seen Lee Hajin 3p go over this hamete very extensively with a friend of mine at the SGC after I played it on him (lol), and I'm pretty sure she never suggested :b7:

at 'a' in your diagram for a move, so maybe that's a sign that it's not a refutation? I'm sure there's still a wealth of variations for that move though, so no disrespect to your 6d friend and I still reserve judgment - just mentioning an observation.

Violence · Post by **Violence** » Wed May 12, 2010 2:47 pm

I've been told that 7 is also correct.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc a and b are miai? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . b . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O X X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X X X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Life In 19x19

Bad beat stories.

Bad beat stories.

Re: Bad beat stories.

Re: Bad beat stories.

Re: Bad beat stories.

Re: Bad beat stories.

Re: Bad beat stories.

Re: Bad beat stories.

Re: Bad beat stories.

Re: Bad beat stories.

Re: Bad beat stories.

Re: Bad beat stories.

Re: Bad beat stories.

Re: Bad beat stories.

Re: Bad beat stories.

Re: Bad beat stories.