Even game vs 3d

[nagano]

I can't imagine that a real 3D would bring the sequence in the lower left upon himself.

[topazg]

Indeed, this is much stronger giving up part of the corner but getting a severe attack.
Does this then mean is also playable?

I think so. Actually, I expected it with "b" anyway:

$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ X X . . . . 3 4 X . . |
$$ . O . O . X 2 X . . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 O 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ X X . . . . 3 4 X . . |
$$ . O . O . X 2 X . . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 O 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------------[/go]

I don't see any alternatives for Black - the only difference is Black may choose not to respond to now, as his investment is lower on the other side.

EDIT: I amusingly cheated in my last sequence, with two moves. However, the sequence is mostly the same anyway:

$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ X X . . . . 3 4 X 0 . |
$$ . O . O . X 2 X 6 8 . |
$$ . . . . . 1 O 5 7 9 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ X X . . . . 3 4 X 0 . |
$$ . O . O . X 2 X 6 8 . |
$$ . . . . . 1 O 5 7 9 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------------[/go]

$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . 5 . . . O X 2 . |
$$ X X . 4 3 . X O X O . |
$$ . O . O . X O X O O 1 |
$$ . . . . . X O X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . 5 . . . O X 2 . |
$$ X X . 4 3 . X O X O . |
$$ . O . O . X O X O O 1 |
$$ . . . . . X O X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------------[/go]

White has some interesting resistance, but it looks good for Black still:

$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . 9 O . . O O . . |
$$ . . 4 7 8 . . O X 2 . |
$$ X X 5 6 3 . X O X O . |
$$ . O . O . X O X O O 1 |
$$ . . . . . X O X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . 9 O . . O O . . |
$$ . . 4 7 8 . . O X 2 . |
$$ X X 5 6 3 . X O X O . |
$$ . O . O . X O X O O 1 |
$$ . . . . . X O X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------------[/go]

[Prodigious]

With regard to the sequence in the top right, here's an example from a 1993 game between Lee Changho and Cho Hunhyun.

http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=475

[Joaz Banbeck]

Upon reflection, I suspect that you should ignore my comments about move 84.

With regard to the sequence in the top right, here's an example from a 1993 game between Lee Changho and Cho Hunhyun...

Sigh. One more thing about this game that I do not understand...

EDIT: I have a new theory. In Redundant's game at the beginning of this thread, black played 23 at F17 and won. In the pro game quoted more recently, black played C10 and lost. Therefore, Redundant's move is better.

[Redundant]

Thanks for the comments everyone!

EDIT: I have a new theory. In Redundant's game at the beginning of this thread, black played 23 at F17 and won. In the pro game quoted more recently, black played C10 and lost. Therefore, Redundant's move is better.

Your logic is undeniable ... brb becoming 9p.

[Medice]

Well, I have nothing else to do while having this strict internet access, I might as well try commenting a bit since this doesn't seem to have had much of useful commentary yet.

the right side sequence is common enough, although difficult, but it is also fair for white. Having black crawl second line is punishment enough.

f17 is ok, but white's next move..

h17 seems wrong direction for white, top side not developable for white, left side more open, should c14. Black is thick in p17.

d14 playable. Could also take corner in sente as white has to play l17 after joseki finishes to make some sense of it, but then black 3-3 on bottom left for example might make him doubt his choice. Black would have all corners, promising.

F15 seems unreasonable. Black strong on top anyway so fighting should favour him.

After d12, some aji in c17 black can use at some point.

c12 seems like bad idea. Touching stone here is very defensive and too early, and usually results are that black might become overconcentrated and white gets stronger. Preferably just running out or tenuki'ing.

White c13 feels very bad. White overconcentrates himself instead. C10 might be feasible, followed by B e15 likely. E12 other option but i didn't read it.

P16 slow.

C6 and b4 slightly slow looking, since c10 so close and alive. Could play more actively.

C3 feels too slow for white now. Maybe fight L14 or M12...

P14 might do more harm than good. no points there, forces white to get out. M12 perhaps?

o14 odd choice. n14 helps white more by taking away black liberty and connects white stone more.

k15 wasn't necessary and is slow.

o15 ko favours black.

on bottom black might be risking an attack a bit.. White can lean d6 for an attack on the black group. Black maybe too heavy.

white c2 way too obedient. e2 path possible for white becouse ladders favour him.
e2, c2, a2, d3, c4, e5, d5...

bottom right disasterous.


Well, that should be enough speculation