What came next and why

[entropi]

Come on, these are just standard moves...

kidding Of course, they look like ridiculously strange moves, at least also to me. I don't think anybody can explain these moves with "reading". What the hell do you need to read for playing 19? Is it this "haengma" thing that indicates such moves, or do they come just out of the blue?

[topazg]

Ok, FWIW, this is the sort of thing I am guessing it's for:

$$Bcm19
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . e . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . a . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X d . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . c . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm19
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . e . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . a . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X d . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . c . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It kind of helps simultaneously against the aji of all these, particularly a-c, and White could choose to play any of them. However, I wanted to ask because I'd never have played it, and it looks like none of our dan players would either. What is it exactly these pro players know ?

[amnal]

Ok, FWIW, this is the sort of thing I am guessing it's for:

$$Bcm19
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . e . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . a . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X d . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . c . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm19
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . e . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . a . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X d . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . c . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It kind of helps simultaneously against the aji of all these, particularly a-c, and White could choose to play any of them. However, I wanted to ask because I'd never have played it, and it looks like none of our dan players would either. What is it exactly these pro players know ?

There is the separate point here that moves are only opinions, and even professionals disagree with one another. Black follows through a strong moyo plan here, but I don't believe it is the only move available.

Your aji reduction conclusion seems like a good one to me. Black neither plays the ubermoyo move at N14, nor the conservative move P5, both of which I thought (and still think) were bad. I didn't consider that black would go for a middle-ground move, it is hard to read and risky, and thereby unusual. I'm not sure there is anything incredibly special about the move, other than it being an unusual strategy in this situation, and therefore interesting to study the implications of. then again, maybe that counts as 'incredibly special'


I would be interested to see professional commentary of this game.

[Bill Spight]

IIRC, was played before (by Yoda???), and caused a stir. It looks like a pretty good place for White to reduce, so, on the theory that my opponent's good play is my good play, why not?

[topazg]

There is the separate point here that moves are only opinions, and even professionals disagree with one another. Black follows through a strong moyo plan here, but I don't believe it is the only move available.

Your aji reduction conclusion seems like a good one to me. Black neither plays the ubermoyo move at N14, nor the conservative move P5, both of which I thought (and still think) were bad. I didn't consider that black would go for a middle-ground move, it is hard to read and risky, and thereby unusual. I'm not sure there is anything incredibly special about the move, other than it being an unusual strategy in this situation, and therefore interesting to study the implications of. then again, maybe that counts as 'incredibly special'

I would be interested to see professional commentary of this game.

I agree with you, but not only would I not have thought of it, if a weaker player had played it I would probably have described at as a poor move that doesn't quite do enough of anything. The pro commentary with the game didn't even comment on it, the first comment was where it said "Gu Li separates strongly" or something to that effect. It makes me wonder what exactly the pro had read that he felt that was bigger than anything else on the board. It goes against the corners -> sides -> center philosophy, it feels like a very loose move, it doesn't really feel big compared to the top left corner.

Also, if Black has decided to go for moyo game, why is that bigger than the top left in his opinion, what aspects of the board make him feel that way? And why exactly this move to achieve it, not a move on the border of two moyos (like :21: ) which is the sort of thing I expect.

Bill's comment was the opponent's move is my own, which I agree with, but that's often when there's some urgency there. For example, the timing to do it because your opponent is just about to play there, and likewise, to me at least, the top left still felt bigger than reducing even from White's perspective.

What makes me interested is that not one of the players on here even suggested a move like that (although stable's was close), and that I find interesting in itself.

I may do something along these lines for my next pop-quiz guessing thread

[entropi]

It might be worth noting that 19 has equal distance to k4 and r11, and 20 is at the point where the difference of its distances from k4 and o7 is minimum.
Maybe this explains the selection of the exact points, once the strategy is decided.

[hyperpape]

Yoda's move: http://senseis.xmp.net/?29thMeijinGame3Move31

[Bill Spight]

My influence player likes these for the next two plays:

$$Bcm19
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm19
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

$$Bcm19
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm19
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And after in the real game, it likes this response.

Is it wrong?

[PYves]

seems like a more ambitious version of P5. nice shape.

[Fredrik]

As I have seen the game already, I can not guess the next moves as I already know where they are! But I will however give some insight about my opinions about the opening!

(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.00]
PW[Vit]PB[Svart]
;B[pd]
;W[dc]
;B[qp]
;W[dp]
;B[oq]
;W[qf]
;B[qi]
;W[md]LB[qe:A][pf:B]C[This move has become really popular lately, the main idea behind it is:]
(;B[qe]LB[pc:A][pf:B]C[So this move counters White's intention. If White play Q14, it will be really complicated.]
(;W[pc]
;B[qc]
;W[oc]C[If Black play R18:]
(;B[pf]
;W[qb]LB[rc:B][fq:A]C[Usually Black plays at B, but recently (last few weeks) professionals seems to stress on quicker development in this fuseki and approach at A]
;B[fq]
;W[dn]
;B[jp]
;W[ci]
;B[nm]LB[pj:E][nn:F][oo:A][qo:C][rp:D][lq:B]C[A really nice move, defending against A-B-C-D-E etc at once.

For White to strike at C would otherwise be a very nice move, so something has to be played in this area. Black defending at C seems to invite A.

I guess this move is also possible at F which seems a bit more normal to us amateurs ]
;W[kn]LB[lo:A][nq:B]C[I like this move a lot. In my opinion, the main purpose for it is to invite Black to defend the territority on the bottom, please see the variation at A

As the stone is very light, its almost impossible to attack it directly, so White is basically asking Black how he will protect. If Black just ignores, White can start to make some sabaki by for example B later.]
;B[lo]
;W[go]LB[in:A][gq:B]
(;B[hp]
;W[in]C[And White can build a very nice moyo himself])
(;B[in]
;W[gq]C[Like this White has no reason to be unhappy either in my opinion.]))
(;B[qb]LB[jc:B][pf:A]C[Now White has two options, either just quietly extend on top or Q14.]
(;W[jc]
;B[pf]C[Like this White is fast but Black has quite a decent amount of points.])
(;W[pf]
;B[od]LB[nd:B][nf:A]C[I played this against Artem in EGC (this local variation, but R11 was at R12. I bumped at B which was a bad move)

So the correct move is jumping at A, which Catalin Taranu 5p "invented" while we were reviewing the game. I really think it's a very nice style of playing!]
(;W[nd]C[This is really the first feeling about the local shape, but:]
;B[oe]C[Hard for White to find a good move here.])
(;W[nf]LB[mc:A]C[When Catalin showed me the move, my first idea was to play at A for Black however:]
;B[mc]
;W[lc]
;B[nc]
;W[ld]LB[qb:A][oc:B][pc:C]C[White gets really thick and builds a nice influence. It's also worth to notice that A is a wasted move in this position, which makes B and C stones really light and White are happy to give them away!]))))
(;W[pf]
;B[oe]
;W[pe]C[Now Black has a choice, R17 or P16]
(;B[od]
;W[qd]
;B[qc]
;W[re]
;B[rd]C[I'm really not sure who is good here, but I would not mind play Black is my first feeling])
(;B[qd]
;W[od]C[Like this the fight will be really difficult.. No idea if there even is a joseki here honestly ])))
(;B[pf]
;W[qc]LB[pc:A][qd:B][qe:C]
(;B[pc]
;W[qd]
;B[qe]
;W[re]
;B[pe]
;W[rf]LB[md:A]C[This for example is one possible variation. Now we can see that the N16 stone is further away from the wall then other approach moves which means that this is good for White.])
(;B[qe]
;W[pc]C[So this is another quite popular variation, right now Black does not have any good move in the upperright corner, as P17 gets answered by O17.])
(;B[qd]C[Another possible choice however not recommended with the R11 imo.]
;W[pc]
;B[oc]
;W[od]
;B[rc]
;W[rb]
;B[rd]
;W[nc]
;B[ob]
;W[pb]
;B[oe]
;W[nd]LB[qi:A]SQ[qh]C[There is still some weakness left in Blacks postion, later White can get some forcing moves on the outside by play Q13, so R11 would be better at R12])))