Teamovitch #1

[Redundant]

Team white internal chat:

What kind of style do we want to play? Are we going to be territorial or influential? Fighting?

I usually play with a pretty territorial style, but I'm willing to try anything.

[topazg]

Team White internal chat:

We become water: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzLhiWd9Efw

We sit on Black. We make them squirm and crawl. We tell them that we won't let them breathe, we won't give them space to think, and we won't let them think that moving first will help them. When they show their hand, we adapt and crush them!

Nicely, of course

[kokomi]

Team white internal chat:

What kind of style do we want to play? Are we going to be territorial or influential? Fighting?

I usually play with a pretty territorial style, but I'm willing to try anything.

For observers only

Good question. Remind me of my freshman team work workshop. Will team black ask the same question soon? This game is becoming more interesting not only on game itself.

[Chew Terr]

White Internal:

Ask me in ten moves! We'll see by the next few moves how black encloses corners, then we'll know what weaknesses/approaches have been left. If black is so kind as to give us a 3-4, we can apporach, and see how it goes from there. For example, if we get an early taisha (like if B comes under our 5-3), then we can likely take outside thickness. I like the idea of having a plan, but I'd say it's too early to commit.

[Jordus]

Move #3

$$Bcm1 Move 3
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm1 Move 3
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Decisions decisions....

$$Wcm2 Move 2
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm2 Move 2
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I thought about playing a, though I usually only see white make moves like that..., and jedo chose b... I favor C because of the chinese(low) opening...D give a more passive approach to that corner... I think I will choose A since Fwiffo presented the option for an orthodox and mini chinese opening... By choosing a we can take this corner or, if coming out of the conflict with seki, we can get an advantage in the other unplayed corner...

[Redundant]

White Internal:

Ask me in ten moves! We'll see by the next few moves how black encloses corners, then we'll know what weaknesses/approaches have been left. If black is so kind as to give us a 3-4, we can apporach, and see how it goes from there. For example, if we get an early taisha (like if B comes under our 5-3), then we can likely take outside thickness. I like the idea of having a plan, but I'd say it's too early to commit.

White Internal:

It's always too early to commit to a plan, but never too early to have one! From the very first stone we play, there is already strategy coming into play. We're aiming at an approach on their top right, while at the same time giving the bottom a secondary importance due to the possibility of an enclosure there. We're probably going for a territorial game at this point, as the 5-3 is a third line stone.

[Joaz Banbeck]

$$c
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
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For teammates and observers:

Yilun Yang wrote a book called "Fundamental principles of Go", in which he has a chapter on ranking moves in the early game. He has several classes of moves starting with the most important.

The first class is playing in an empty corner.
The second class is
A) playing the second move - either a kakari or a shimari - in a corner that already has a 3-4, 3-5, or 4-5 stone.
B) playing on the side in if both corners face that way
There is a third class and a fourth class, and they have several subdivisions.

IMHO, this one chapter is worth the price of the book. I recommend it to anyone below pro level.

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One soldier suggested approaching the 5-3 stone. It simply is not - according to Yang - as big a move as taking an empty corner. So I've got to go with one of the other moves, if they appear reasonable. FWIW, it is one of the two standard approaches to that stone, so I'm not saying that it is a bad move, just premature

Both of the other two pass the first test of being fundamentally a good move, without considering future flow of the game.

The other two suggestions were these:

$$c Move 3
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Move 3
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Let's look at the upper one. Assuming that white does their theoretical best and takes the open corner ( here assumed to be a star point because it is fast and they are already a move behind ) it looks like this:

$$c
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Letting white play 'a' as an extension of his star point is no good for us, so we play the shimari. Their biggest is their shimari with 6. Next, the lower and upper sides are the biggest. It is symetrical and boring but we still have the first move.


The lower one looks like this: ( again, I'm assuming a start point for them )

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The biggest moves are 5 and 6. Next 7 is the biggest move, as one shimari and one star point face that way. Move 8 is not as big. We can force this sequence unless they voluntarily make a smaller move.

Note the logic here:
Moves 1 through 4 were at about the same temperature: open corners were available.
Moves 5 and 6 occur at the same temperature.
But move 7 is the only one of its size. Move 8 is a tiny bit smaller.

[Redundant]

$$c
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Let's take another 5-3. This one works to make the enclosure on their lower left less important, as we're already emphasizing the left. It's along the same principles as their move three, which has primary direction on the bottom, to reduce the possibilities for us there. Also, this corner move doesn't leave a good approach for black. The 5-4 approach works best with the direction of their upper right, but the joseki gives us a massive corner.

[Chew Terr]

White suggestion:

$$c
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Similar to Red's, more likely to get influence. Kind of weird, but I've been playing it a lot lately. TJ, are you going to offer Topazg a more normal alternative again? Because Red and I both seem to be enjoying silly craziness. =D

[Jordus]

Internal Black chat:

@Joaz
[quote=Joaz]One soldier suggested approaching the 5-3 stone. It simply is not - according to Yang - as big a move as taking an empty corner. So I've got to go with one of the other moves, if they appear reasonable. FWIW, it is one of the two standard approaches to that stone, so I'm not saying that it is a bad move, just premature
[/quote]

I have noticed a trend starting around the time the book you mentioned was published that white would approach the 5-3 stone(when played by black) over taking the corner... While according to fundamental principles this move may be premature, White wins most of those games that I have observed...

Here is one Pro game for example:

(;GM[1]FF[4]SZ[19]CA[UTF-8]
PW[Lin Shengxian]
PB[Dai Jiashen]
WR[6p]
BR[7p]
HA[0]
RU[Ing]
KM[8]
RE[W+3]
EV[Zhonghuan Cup, 2000]
DT[2001-01-28]
;B[qe];W[dp];B[oq];W[po];B[qm];W[od];B[qc];W[on];B[pk];W[qn];B[pm];W[qq];B[ld];W[pc];B[qb];W[of];B[qr];W[rr];B[lq];W[qf];B[pe];W[pf];B[re];W[mf];B[oe];W[ne];B[ng];W[mg];B[nh];W[nf];B[id];W[dc];B[ce];W[gc];B[ig];W[pi];B[nj];W[cj];B[cc];W[cb];B[bc];W[bb];B[ch];W[dn];B[pr];W[rn];B[ec];W[eb];B[dd];W[db];B[rf];W[md];B[lc];W[mi];B[ni];W[le];B[rs];W[rm];B[rl];W[rk];B[sl];W[rq];B[qh];W[ph];B[qg];W[pg];B[qk];W[jq];B[no];W[op];B[np];W[pq];B[nr];W[eq];B[oo];W[pp];B[hq];W[ip];B[hp];W[ho];B[jr];W[go];B[iq];W[ci];B[dh];W[ej];B[in];W[io];B[fl];W[dl];B[fj];W[ei];B[fc];W[fb];B[hb];W[gb];B[hc];W[gd];B[nc];W[mc];B[mb];W[nb];B[ob];W[je];B[na];W[oc];B[ie];W[jf];B[if];W[kd];B[fe];W[ac];B[ad];W[ab];B[fr];W[er];B[kn];W[kc];B[lb];W[kh];B[ki];W[jh];B[pn];W[li];B[lk];W[gr];B[bh];W[bi];B[be];W[jk];B[kj];W[ij];B[kl];W[hm];B[hi];W[qi];B[ri];W[rj];B[rh];W[qj];B[em];W[en];B[ii];W[jp];B[hr];W[gq];B[hn];W[gn];B[im];W[kr];B[kq];W[hs];B[lr];W[gk];B[hl];W[fk];B[hk];W[hj];B[ek];W[gi];B[gl];W[gj];B[dm];W[cm];B[dk];W[cl];B[el];W[gp];B[ir];W[fg];B[kb];W[pb];B[sm];W[ro];B[nb];W[nd];B[fh];W[eh];B[gh];W[fi];B[eg];W[gg];B[hh];W[ge];B[ef];W[ff];B[hg];W[gf];B[pa];W[ee];B[de];W[fd];B[ai];W[aj];B[ah];W[ck];B[ed];W[ko];B[lo];W[jn];B[jm];W[ln];B[jo];W[oj];B[ok];W[jn];B[km];W[lp];B[mo];W[kp];B[jc];W[gm];B[ik];W[jj];B[jd];W[ke];B[jg];W[kg];B[mh];W[lh];B[sn];W[so];B[ga];W[fa];B[ha];W[si];B[sh];W[kk];B[mk];W[fm];B[jo];W[ji];B[lj];W[jn];B[ll];W[mp];B[mq];W[pd];B[qd];W[is];B[ks];W[gs];B[js];W[ql];B[pl];W[sr];B[hd];W[mj];B[sj];W[sk];B[ql];W[fe];B[qs];W[dj];B[il];W[di];B[nk];W[pj];B[jl];W[og];B[oi];W[oh];B[ss];W[ih];B[hf];W[he])

I am curious as to applying said technique against white, with black having the advantage of first move...

[topazg]

For observers:

Aah, what dazzling devilry is this! My spider sense are tingling, and I'm smelling a Black counter-strategy already. So, now we have a 5-3 sort of facing ours. Cute, and a fun idea - I suppose the idea is possibly to approach the lower right soon, maybe as follows:

$$Wcm4 Possible Black plans
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 2 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . 6 . . . 4 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm4 Possible Black plans
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 2 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . 6 . . . 4 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

To be honest, this looks quite acceptable to White if he has another stone in the top left, and locally it's a nice bottom right. So, maybe Black isn't aiming for this, or not just yet. The alternative is a standard approach (at ) which will lead to us pressing down I suspect, as Black will have a flat bottom and White some good development potential. However, because White wants to approach in the top right, my fave response may be hoped for:

$$Wcm4 Possible Black plans
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . a . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm4 Possible Black plans
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . a . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Thing is, I really don't like the idea of Black getting "a", so maybe not. At least I can rely on Chew to throw the taisha in here, that could be fun.

So, approaching 4-4 stones is generally of lower urgency than approaching directional corner stones (3-4, 3-5, and 4-5), so I suspect the top right will be low priority for a few moves. That said, White's 5-3 and Black's 4-4 both want to develop the right side, so it's not entirely small - it does depend on what's happened on the bottom right corner. I think approaching the lower left opens up Black's options of what he wants in the lower right, so my gut feeling is to take the top left now, and see what Black wants most. I don't think approaching is out of the question, just not just yet. Another interesting idea I have is as follows:

$$Wcm4 Possible Black plans
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm4 Possible Black plans
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now, the last corner is bigger than this .... but it encourages some fun options for White. If Black approaches the lower right, White can fight with the taisha with added support already, and it occupies a big point. If Black ignores white can take the shimari in the lower right with a perfect extension. If Black tenukis White can now approach the lower left:

$$Wcm4 Possible Black plans
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm4 Possible Black plans
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And this is a good result for White as Black can't get a happy extension. Again, in a taisha, White has a useful side stone for support. Lots of plans, all dependent on Black deciding to pass on move 5, but it's nice having a think about what might get to be played.

Which move of White's do I like most so far? Probably chew's 5-4, just because it's different, the ladder works for us (see dia below) and I'm a bit concerned about giving Black good approaches with the more influential 4-4 in the top right (see second dia below):

$$Wcm4 Ladder works for us
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 4 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 3 6 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 5 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm4 Ladder works for us
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 4 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 3 6 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 5 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

$$Wcm4 Seems more painful than LR dia for us
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 4 . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 2 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm4 Seems more painful than LR dia for us
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 4 . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 2 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

[topazg]

Further thoughts for observers:

"What? You didn't consider the shimari? Everyone knows that's big enough for an opening move"

Yes, but here, I didn't like it. I almost wonder if that's Black's counter plan already:

$$Wcm4 Do not like it No.1
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . 2 . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm4 Do not like it No.1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . 2 . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black gets a perfect extension, takes away ours, and gets sente

$$Wcm4 Do not like it No.2
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . 6 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . 2 . . 8 . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm4 Do not like it No.2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . 6 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . 2 . . 8 . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Just look at that bottom edge!!

Also, for observers:

I'm kind of tempted to tenuki a lower right approach to approach the upper right:

$$Wcm4 Fun idea?
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 4 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 7 5 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . 8 . 6 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm4 Fun idea?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 4 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 7 5 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . 8 . 6 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Of course, Black may pincer the lower right, but that's a standard 3-4 approach joseki anyway. And he may pincer the upper right, in which case we can play for a fun lower right alternative joseki that keeps us sente (if at all possible) to respond up there. Wowzers, this is going to get sooo complicated

[Jedo]

Black internal chat

Jordus, I think in the game that you posted black is essentially forcing white to approach for fear of black getting a shimari in the bottom right and having an ideal formation. In our game we have a diagonal fuseki. For this reason, approaching isn't as important as in that pro game since white can't get a framework anyway. I think as Joaz said you would rather grab an empty corner unless you're forced to approach first.

[Joaz Banbeck]

Internal black chat:

As Jedo said, it appears that the intention is to disrupt the formation of a shimari, which does not apply here.
Even if it did, I'd be hesitant to play it myself. Perhaps other pros understand when there are exceptions to Yang's principles, but I'm not going to assume that I do.

[Joaz Banbeck]

I have a request for observers.

I'm finding it tricky to tread the path between not saying anything, and naming specific continuations. It is very difficult to say exactly why a move might be good or bad without talking about the moves that follow. I can't always appeal to principles. If I do it too much, I might be giving our team an unfair advantage. But 'too much' is relative to how much Topazg is doing.

I'd like one or more observers to ( publicly? privately? ) tell Topazg and I if we are doing about the same / less / more discussion of future continuations compared to the other captain.

Thanks
-JB