Request for triggers from teammates:
When we get into situations in which there are only a few moves that are standard joseki, it might make the game go faster if soldiers made trigger suggestions, like "if white plays P4, I suggest XX". ( These, of course, should be hidden. )
BTW,I did not hide this post because I think that the white team might want to do it too.
Teamovitch #1
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Joaz Banbeck
- Judan
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Re: Teamovitch #1
Post by Joaz Banbeck »
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
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topazg
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Re: Teamovitch #1
For the team:
If we are going to pick josekis, can we post sequences so we can speed up the process of going through the moves 
Also, it helps to give an indication to observers the overall outcome you are aiming for when you suggest the move!
Also, it helps to give an indication to observers the overall outcome you are aiming for when you suggest the move!
-
topazg
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Re: Teamovitch #1
Welcome to Graham's Go Grumbles (Hey, maybe that's a better intro jingle for my videos, especially with the last audio quality?)
This one's an essay or three, as I wanted to give full insights into exactly how I would assess a real, complicated, and interesting board position in a game. This, to me, is a good moment for Malkoviching - if any observers / team members have questions, please send them all my way.
For the team:
For observers - thoughts and ideas:
Observers - what I want right now
(Hey, maybe that's a better intro jingle for my videos, especially with the last audio quality?)This one's an essay or three, as I wanted to give full insights into exactly how I would assess a real, complicated, and interesting board position in a game. This, to me, is a good moment for Malkoviching - if any observers / team members have questions, please send them all my way.
For the team:
Right, time to crack the whip. Firstly, I'm not going to say your choices suck. They don't, but while I wait for TJ's suggestion there are things we are going to have to do in a game like this, or we are going to lose. The board is a big place. There's 361 points to start with, and 354 left still. Expecting to play locally (which I have to assume is all you did based on the thoughts you gave) is not going to be good enough when the whole board is so important. The last move thoughts were great, but perhaps that was because of how obvious the shimari made it, and thinking outside the box is vital. The fuseki is a razors edge dance where you don't listen to your opponent, because the song you are following in your own head is better. Sometimes that adapts to the opponent's move, but it doesn't respond to the opponent's move - there lies the path to passive disaster.
For example, Red, there are two corners Black wants to approach. Sure, we could take your joseki, but it's gote, which means not only does Black get to approach one of our corners, but also the other one. Do we really want that? Have we considered the possibility of which corner is the biggest to play our next move in?
Chew, you picked taisha, and you like taisha, and that's all and well. What about the end result? Does that scupper our opponent's development plans? Does the central influence balance swing our way or Black's? Are there thoughts of sente/gote in how we jump into the taisha before that particular one way road sparks fly?
If we are approached, always consider at least one local and one tenuki move to compare. If our opponent has picked a big move, always consider at least one move designed to attack / punish and another to develop / take a bit point. Not meaning to be scathing at all (ok, maybe just a very slight chastisement
), I'm very pleased to have you all on the team, but we must keep our game and thoughts at a very high level
My thoughts in this move will be in the observers bit for the end of the game, but when I pick I will discuss the ones you suggested.
For example, Red, there are two corners Black wants to approach. Sure, we could take your joseki, but it's gote, which means not only does Black get to approach one of our corners, but also the other one. Do we really want that? Have we considered the possibility of which corner is the biggest to play our next move in?
Chew, you picked taisha, and you like taisha, and that's all and well. What about the end result? Does that scupper our opponent's development plans? Does the central influence balance swing our way or Black's? Are there thoughts of sente/gote in how we jump into the taisha before that particular one way road sparks fly?
If we are approached, always consider at least one local and one tenuki move to compare. If our opponent has picked a big move, always consider at least one move designed to attack / punish and another to develop / take a bit point. Not meaning to be scathing at all (ok, maybe just a very slight chastisement
), I'm very pleased to have you all on the team, but we must keep our game and thoughts at a very high level My thoughts in this move will be in the observers bit for the end of the game, but when I pick I will discuss the ones you suggested.
For observers - thoughts and ideas:
Grrrr... this is slack of White. White has only expended one stone down here, and even in the corner it can be treated lightly. We need to have a much better attempt at assessing the whole board - it's more important now than it will be for the rest of the game. Fundamental Principles (Yang), Opening Theory made Easy (Hideo) and Direction of Play (Kajiwara) are all outstanding books to read to grasp the basics of these concepts, probably in the order Hideo -> Yang -> Kajiwara, and reading+sequence experience put the meat on the theory for how variations can play out. However, to simply respond without attempting to apply these concepts is not good enough in a Malkovich game. For one thing, I want our moves to serve multiple purposes - 
was nice because it both prevented Black's dreams and genuinely bolstered the power of the upper left corner.
One comment I received when discussing a game position with Mr Yang has always stuck in my mind - when asked what move would be ideal in a given fuseki position, I said "How about here, it does a and b, that looks good enough for Black?" and he instantly responded "There is no 'good enough', it's the right move or it isn't, look again". Such I suspect is the professional way of thinking, and we all need to aspire to such standards with our moves if we hope to improve I think.
So, let's have a quick look at the board:
a) The lower edge
The shimari in the lower left makes the lower edge hard for Black to develop. We have to be slightly careful, because in the lower right if he can pull back with a knight's move from his approach, Black gains the ability to make a bit of a framework down there, but even if so C9 is still perfectly placed to restrict the two dimensional development of it Black can get. Already, the potential of good double wings has mostly gone, and one of the reasons I like is because it challenges the efficiency a bit of 
. On hindsight, isn't slow, but it is one track minded. I think if we can make the most of our expansive ideas we can get a slightly better result (at least, I hope so). Important, and potentially big, but not urgent in the literal sense nor big enough to be urgent just yet either.
b) The lower right corner
The area of the moment! As Black has now approached it, there's a psychological feeling of high temperature here, but I think it appears deceptively high. Obviously most local moves here right now are huge, but there's also a big question mark over the usefulness and efficiency of the result. We have so many flexible options down there right now I'd rather resolve the upper right a bit more before deciding which one we want. I also feel that Black can't get as much from the next two moves in this corner as White can from two moves in the far corner, so I'd throw the gauntlet down a bit for which one's bigger. Urgent, big, but hard to lose out badly if we don't play there as we have so many good options. Kind of like two massively sente miai points against a group - there's no rush or point in jumping at one when the other one's always still going to be there.
c) The right edge
Both the upper right star and the lower right 5-3 want dibs on the right. And Black's approach increases the stakes somewhat. This is the primary reason I'd choose to approach the top right instead of respond directly, as we hope to have the exact sort of development we want if we can get a response. Of course, Black may well pincer (see last hide box) and that gets interesting - still, that's the fuseki dance for you.
d) The upper right corner
Not so urgent. 4-4 stones are like that. Flexible, lots of things can happen, and everyone has lots of options. We may want to approach it, but only regarding the aim of developing the right hand side.
e) The top edge
A really really interesting area of the board to me. Normally, the 5-4 in the top left is aiming to develop the left side, not the top, and the 4-4 in the top right wants to develop the top, so it would be an area that only one player has good potential in - important therefore, but not urgent. However, the flavour of the top has changed considerable after. Before, if White takes a corner enclosure, Black takes the top, and if White takes the top, Black approaches the top left, and both are broadly speaking pretty close to each other with regards to the result. However, now, Black approaching the top left already gives White a useful left hand side position because is both in place, and hard to attack. As a result, getting a stone on the top prevents Black's development there (and gives White two good approaches in the top right), and when Black approaches the top left White gets a good result on both sides. As a result, K16 (the top star point) looks like a valuable, multi-directional, multi-purpose rule. This feels both big, and it creates an urgent situation that Black has no good way of handling, but can't ignore (and let White enclose the top left as well) either.
f) The top left
It's big, but Black playing here is ok for White, and White playing here gives Black the freedom of taking the top side which a) hinders White and b) helps Black's development. As a result, it feels like it is hard to find a move here that is as big as the top edge, although completing the enclosure definitely feels like a big and solid move.
g) The left hand side
We already have two stones there, and another would be both unnecessary and over concentrated. Not big, not urgent.
was nice because it both prevented Black's dreams and genuinely bolstered the power of the upper left corner.One comment I received when discussing a game position with Mr Yang has always stuck in my mind - when asked what move would be ideal in a given fuseki position, I said "How about here, it does a and b, that looks good enough for Black?" and he instantly responded "There is no 'good enough', it's the right move or it isn't, look again". Such I suspect is the professional way of thinking, and we all need to aspire to such standards with our moves if we hope to improve I think.
So, let's have a quick look at the board:
$$Bcm7 Move 7 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . f . . . . . . e . . . . . . d . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . g , . . . . . , . . . . . , c . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . a . . . . . 1 b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . f . . . . . . e . . . . . . d . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . g , . . . . . , . . . . . , c . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . a . . . . . 1 b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7 Move 7 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . f . . . . . . e . . . . . . d . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . g , . . . . . , . . . . . , c . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . a . . . . . 1 b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
a) The lower edge
The shimari in the lower left makes the lower edge hard for Black to develop. We have to be slightly careful, because in the lower right if he can pull back with a knight's move from his approach, Black gains the ability to make a bit of a framework down there, but even if so C9 is still perfectly placed to restrict the two dimensional development of it Black can get. Already, the potential of good double wings has mostly gone, and one of the reasons I like
is because it challenges the efficiency a bit of . On hindsight, isn't slow, but it is one track minded. I think if we can make the most of our expansive ideas we can get a slightly better result (at least, I hope so). Important, and potentially big, but not urgent in the literal sense nor big enough to be urgent just yet either.b) The lower right corner
The area of the moment! As Black has now approached it, there's a psychological feeling of high temperature here, but I think it appears deceptively high. Obviously most local moves here right now are huge, but there's also a big question mark over the usefulness and efficiency of the result. We have so many flexible options down there right now I'd rather resolve the upper right a bit more before deciding which one we want. I also feel that Black can't get as much from the next two moves in this corner as White can from two moves in the far corner, so I'd throw the gauntlet down a bit for which one's bigger. Urgent, big, but hard to lose out badly if we don't play there as we have so many good options. Kind of like two massively sente miai points against a group - there's no rush or point in jumping at one when the other one's always still going to be there.
c) The right edge
Both the upper right star and the lower right 5-3 want dibs on the right. And Black's approach increases the stakes somewhat. This is the primary reason I'd choose to approach the top right instead of respond directly, as we hope to have the exact sort of development we want if we can get a response. Of course, Black may well pincer (see last hide box) and that gets interesting - still, that's the fuseki dance for you.
d) The upper right corner
Not so urgent. 4-4 stones are like that. Flexible, lots of things can happen, and everyone has lots of options. We may want to approach it, but only regarding the aim of developing the right hand side.
e) The top edge
A really really interesting area of the board to me. Normally, the 5-4 in the top left is aiming to develop the left side, not the top, and the 4-4 in the top right wants to develop the top, so it would be an area that only one player has good potential in - important therefore, but not urgent. However, the flavour of the top has changed considerable after
. Before, if White takes a corner enclosure, Black takes the top, and if White takes the top, Black approaches the top left, and both are broadly speaking pretty close to each other with regards to the result. However, now, Black approaching the top left already gives White a useful left hand side position because is both in place, and hard to attack. As a result, getting a stone on the top prevents Black's development there (and gives White two good approaches in the top right), and when Black approaches the top left White gets a good result on both sides. As a result, K16 (the top star point) looks like a valuable, multi-directional, multi-purpose rule. This feels both big, and it creates an urgent situation that Black has no good way of handling, but can't ignore (and let White enclose the top left as well) either.f) The top left
It's big, but Black playing here is ok for White, and White playing here gives Black the freedom of taking the top side which a) hinders White and b) helps Black's development. As a result, it feels like it is hard to find a move here that is as big as the top edge, although completing the enclosure definitely feels like a big and solid move.
g) The left hand side
We already have two stones there, and another would be both unnecessary and over concentrated. Not big, not urgent.
Observers - what I want right now
Frankly, I'm not entirely sure, but tenuki seems the best option as we don't quite know what we want from this corner yet. One of the great joys of the 5-3 opening point is that it is really flexible. That is not limited to the options available at handling Black approaches, but including the ability to not respond at all. It's surprisingly hard for Black to quickly eliminate the aji of the 5-3 stone, which means White has a lot of scope to assess the rest of the board. For example:
The "a" and "b" (follow up) points still have plenty of aji, and this despite all the moves Black has played down there. In the meantime, White is making some serious points.
This is actually probably my favourite move (at the top), making it easier and easier for White to profit from Black approaching the top left. The invasion on the left side between the White stones is already frankly overplay, but after this it is so easy for White to profit from.
I'm unhappy with Red's press because I think Black gets to have his cake and eat it:
I don't want Black to get
so easily. This already feels like Black's getting more bang for his buck than White, as 
doesn't feel big enough to compensate for Black's bottom potential, territory, and the fact he kept sente. Chew's taisha is a big disruption joseki really:
"a" is a small bit of White points. "b" is Black low points. "c" is Black low points. "d" is outside White influence. I don't know, the corner's not that huge or that big a bonus right here and now, and I don't fancy giving black settled and stable territory on both edges. It's playable, and I prefer it slightly to Red's choice, but neither solution feels "great" to me.
My choices
I'd prefer any of the points marked below given a choice.
"a" - This is just big, but I'm not happy about the fact Black gets to play at the top, working for his star point stone and against our enclosure. That feels too perfect for him to me somehow.
"b" - Because of the reasoning for "a", and because we have a left side presence, I don't believe Black can easily respond well to us taking this top point. The logical thing to do is invade the top left before we enclose, but obviously the outside thickness is awesome for us. Bring it on I say! This is my favourite option.
"c" - If Black responds to this approach, we can then press happily:
Now we at least have a nice overall development, with good potential to make that right side bigger. It helps us choose a lower right follow up, and has good flexibility and potential in the upper right. However, if Black pincers in the lower right at
instead, we could end up with the following:
Buh? My head hurts. Still, looks kinda fun too Black also the ability to pincer in the top right, and I can't quite read out how well the board will look after we open up cans of crazy on each other. As a result ...
"d" - More directly setting up the press, and leaving open the immediate top right approach depending on Black's next move. However, this is very gote and I'm less keen on this one, I'd rather take the pincer risks. So, in preference, my move choices out of these 4 are "b", "c", "a" and "d". I added "e" because if I am at least to talk about a local follow up, I may as well point out the one I would have chosen myself
$$Bcm7 Move 7 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7 Move 7 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The "a" and "b" (follow up) points still have plenty of aji, and this despite all the moves Black has played down there. In the meantime, White is making some serious points.
This is actually probably my favourite move (at the top), making it easier and easier for White to profit from Black approaching the top left. The invasion on the left side between the White stones is already frankly overplay, but after this it is so easy for White to profit from.
I'm unhappy with Red's press because I think Black gets to have his cake and eat it:
$$Bcm7 Move 7 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 6 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 4 2 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . 5 . 3 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7 Move 7 - B:0 - W:0
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I don't want Black to get
so easily. This already feels like Black's getting more bang for his buck than White, as doesn't feel big enough to compensate for Black's bottom potential, territory, and the fact he kept sente. Chew's taisha is a big disruption joseki really:$$Bcm7 Move 7 - B:0 - W:0
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- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7 Move 7 - B:0 - W:0
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"a" is a small bit of White points. "b" is Black low points. "c" is Black low points. "d" is outside White influence. I don't know, the corner's not that huge or that big a bonus right here and now, and I don't fancy giving black settled and stable territory on both edges. It's playable, and I prefer it slightly to Red's choice, but neither solution feels "great" to me.
My choices
I'd prefer any of the points marked below given a choice.
$$Bcm7 Move 7 - B:0 - W:0
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- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7 Move 7 - B:0 - W:0
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"a" - This is just big, but I'm not happy about the fact Black gets to play at the top, working for his star point stone and against our enclosure. That feels too perfect for him to me somehow.
"b" - Because of the reasoning for "a", and because we have a left side presence, I don't believe Black can easily respond well to us taking this top point. The logical thing to do is invade the top left before we enclose, but obviously the outside thickness is awesome for us. Bring it on I say! This is my favourite option.
"c" - If Black responds to this approach, we can then press happily:
$$Bcm7 Move 7 - B:0 - W:0
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- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7 Move 7 - B:0 - W:0
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Now we at least have a nice overall development, with good potential to make that right side bigger. It helps us choose a lower right follow up, and has good flexibility and potential in the upper right. However, if Black pincers in the lower right at
instead, we could end up with the following:$$Bcm7 Move 7 - B:0 - W:0
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- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7 Move 7 - B:0 - W:0
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Buh? My head hurts. Still, looks kinda fun too
Black also the ability to pincer in the top right, and I can't quite read out how well the board will look after we open up cans of crazy on each other. As a result ..."d" - More directly setting up the press, and leaving open the immediate top right approach depending on Black's next move. However, this is very gote and I'm less keen on this one, I'd rather take the pincer risks. So, in preference, my move choices out of these 4 are "b", "c", "a" and "d". I added "e" because if I am at least to talk about a local follow up, I may as well point out the one I would have chosen myself
-
Joaz Banbeck
- Judan
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Re: Teamovitch #1
Post by Joaz Banbeck »
For teammates and observers:
It is getting cold in here. The temperature is going to drop rapidly in the next handful of moves. It is very profitable for us to get the last of the big moves. ( See tedomari at SL )
There are four big areas left, as shown below: the remaining corner, and the three unclaimed sides. We can reasonably expect to split the at two each. Iit is quite possible that a joseki will swirl out of a corner and expand so far long the side that the side is no longer a big move. In that case, we want to get two of the last three big moves.
Keeping sente will be very important.
If we do split the last four moves in a relatively straightforward manner, we can expect a fighting game. It is a diagonal fuseki, so the possibility of large frameworks is decreased. Territories will be made in small chunks, and contested with small invasions and reductions. in such a game, it is easy to get over-focussed on one area and ignore the fact that the local temperature is dropping - and thus miss bigger moves elsewhere. Tenuki will be very important.
In summary:
1) THINK BIG POINTS.
2) As the big points are being taken, THINK SENTE.
3) As soon as the big points are gone, THINK TENUKI.
BTW, I'm really pleased with the suggestions. In all but one of the moves that we have made, the move that I thought was best was suggested. And even that one move I'm not sure is better.
There are four big areas left, as shown below: the remaining corner, and the three unclaimed sides. We can reasonably expect to split the at two each. Iit is quite possible that a joseki will swirl out of a corner and expand so far long the side that the side is no longer a big move. In that case, we want to get two of the last three big moves.
Keeping sente will be very important.
$$Wc
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- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If we do split the last four moves in a relatively straightforward manner, we can expect a fighting game. It is a diagonal fuseki, so the possibility of large frameworks is decreased. Territories will be made in small chunks, and contested with small invasions and reductions. in such a game, it is easy to get over-focussed on one area and ignore the fact that the local temperature is dropping - and thus miss bigger moves elsewhere. Tenuki will be very important.
In summary:
1) THINK BIG POINTS.
2) As the big points are being taken, THINK SENTE.
3) As soon as the big points are gone, THINK TENUKI.
BTW, I'm really pleased with the suggestions. In all but one of the moves that we have made, the move that I thought was best was suggested. And even that one move I'm not sure is better.
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
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tj86430
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Re: Teamovitch #1
Sorry for the delay, I have been a little unwell.
For white team:
For white team:
My suggestion:
Even without our captains message I would have considered tenuki. The move I chose was my first instinct. I did also consider a, b and c. If opponent chooses the conservative response I think we are fine:
After a squeeze all kinds of things can happen, but I'm thinking something like:
which is much more complicated, but I think we have good potential.
Unfortunately my joseki knowledge is so poor, that without consulting books I can't tell what would be the best continuation after a squeeze.
$$Bc Move 8 - B:0 - W:0
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$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 8 - B:0 - W:0
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Even without our captains message I would have considered tenuki. The move I chose was my first instinct. I did also consider a, b and c. If opponent chooses the conservative response I think we are fine:
$$Wc Move 7 - B:0 - W:0
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$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 7 - B:0 - W:0
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
After a squeeze all kinds of things can happen, but I'm thinking something like:
$$Wc Move 7 - B:0 - W:0
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 4 . X . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 7 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
which is much more complicated, but I think we have good potential.
Unfortunately my joseki knowledge is so poor, that without consulting books I can't tell what would be the best continuation after a squeeze.
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Chew Terr
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Re: Teamovitch #1
Sorry, I'll try to go into a bit more explanation on my recommendation. First, I've only seen two real outcomes to the taisha.
This one is one variation that has gone down in my Malkovich with Marcus. While black has stones in the bottom left, they're awfully low and far away, so this seems fine to me. It makes the right side the biggest on the board, but even if black takes it, we could tenuki (while our group is strong, it cannot be attacked harshly, so we could take a point about equally large up top). At this point, central thickness is about even, depending on who gets O6/P6. I think that the most likely thing is that black would capture
, we would take O6, black would defend, then we would approach the top right, perhaps wide and low. While this seems just fine for us in the overall position, this is not the taisha continuation I expected.
The variation I expected most is something like this:
This is the variation that I expect most, for two reasons: first, I've seen it most, and second, the first diagram (if we get sente to do the approach up top) just looks too good for us. I can't honestly say how this variation will turn out, or who will get sente, because this is the 'Hey, taisha devolves into crazy fights!' variation. While opponents often make mistakes before it gets this far, generally what I've seen from here is that white would get a stable group on both sides and black would get out. Eventually. So if an extension on the top and right sides are miai, the board would suddenly be mostly settled, with us having the lion's share of the points. Obviously, the fights wouldn't necessarily settle us, but, barring tactical errors, they should turn out even or better. If we can keep black's group to mostly dame or stable-with-few-points, we'd be better off for it. And the ladder works for us, by the way.
In the interests of disclosure, this was the non-local alternative that I considered. It seems huge, because pincers are a little hard against it, being so wide. If B jumps into the top left, we can either pincer fiercely or push B low, depending on where they come in. This seems to be well-positioned to work in either case. The reason I decided against it was that, though it seemed huge, it felt a bit less urgent than responding locally.
$$Wc Move 7 - B:0 - W:0
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 2 O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 1 4 3 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . 6 B . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 2 O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 1 4 3 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . 6 B . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 7 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 2 O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 1 4 3 5 . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This one is one variation that has gone down in my Malkovich with Marcus. While black has stones in the bottom left, they're awfully low and far away, so this seems fine to me. It makes the right side the biggest on the board, but even if black takes it, we could tenuki (while our group is strong, it cannot be attacked harshly, so we could take a point about equally large up top). At this point, central thickness is about even, depending on who gets O6/P6. I think that the most likely thing is that black would capture
, we would take O6, black would defend, then we would approach the top right, perhaps wide and low. While this seems just fine for us in the overall position, this is not the taisha continuation I expected. The variation I expected most is something like this:
$$Wc Move 7 - B:0 - W:0
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- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 7 - B:0 - W:0
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This is the variation that I expect most, for two reasons: first, I've seen it most, and second, the first diagram (if we get sente to do the approach up top) just looks too good for us. I can't honestly say how this variation will turn out, or who will get sente, because this is the 'Hey, taisha devolves into crazy fights!' variation. While opponents often make mistakes before it gets this far, generally what I've seen from here is that white would get a stable group on both sides and black would get out. Eventually. So if an extension on the top and right sides are miai, the board would suddenly be mostly settled, with us having the lion's share of the points. Obviously, the fights wouldn't necessarily settle us, but, barring tactical errors, they should turn out even or better. If we can keep black's group to mostly dame or stable-with-few-points, we'd be better off for it. And the ladder works for us, by the way.
$$Wc Move 7 - B:0 - W:0
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- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 7 - B:0 - W:0
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
In the interests of disclosure, this was the non-local alternative that I considered. It seems huge, because pincers are a little hard against it, being so wide. If B jumps into the top left, we can either pincer fiercely or push B low, depending on where they come in. This
seems to be well-positioned to work in either case. The reason I decided against it was that, though it seemed huge, it felt a bit less urgent than responding locally.Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
-
topazg
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Re: Teamovitch #1
$$Wcm8 Move 8 - B:0 - W:0
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- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Move 8 - B:0 - W:0
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
For observers:
Ours is not to make reply ... ours is not to reason why ... ours it but to do and die ... into the valley of death rode the white stones.
Seriously, here goes nothing, please refer to my last observer comments - this is sort of a probe to see what Black wants, and where. How about this?
Seriously, here goes nothing, please refer to my last observer comments - this is sort of a probe to see what Black wants, and where. How about this?
$$Wcm8 Move 8 - B:0 - W:0
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- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Move 8 - B:0 - W:0
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
For the team:
@Red: This may be the ideal direction to play, but I think we need to prepare it first. The following feels too good for Black:
Now, if we have a good approach in the top right, we play the right stone high on the hoshi, and I'm happy. So if Black pulls back, this looks fine to me. However, if he pincers, we enter crazy land, and I'm ok with that too.
@chew: I like the taisha, but it's a one way road that disrupts the whole lower right corner of the board into, well, not much. If Black pincers, the chances are we're going to want to come back to the lower right with the taisha, but first let's see what Black wants in the top right and right side.
This is exactly why I didn't want to play out a joseki first - I actually want to see which joseki we want, and I think that rather depends on Black's response. Rather than picking a joseki ourselves and letting Black pick a top right sequence that works for him and against us, I'd rather call for Black to show his hand and then pick the lower right joseki we want.
@TJ: I love it, though your
is not quite ambitious enough (see above) Your choice was my second favourite move from my analysis in the hidden observer chunk before you suggested your move.
$$Bcm7 Move 7 - B:0 - W:0
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- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7 Move 7 - B:0 - W:0
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 4 2 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . 5 . 3 1 . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Now, if we have a good approach in the top right, we play the right stone high on the hoshi, and I'm happy. So if Black pulls back, this looks fine to me. However, if he pincers, we enter crazy land, and I'm ok with that too.
@chew: I like the taisha, but it's a one way road that disrupts the whole lower right corner of the board into, well, not much. If Black pincers, the chances are we're going to want to come back to the lower right with the taisha, but first let's see what Black wants in the top right and right side.
This is exactly why I didn't want to play out a joseki first - I actually want to see which joseki we want, and I think that rather depends on Black's response. Rather than picking a joseki ourselves and letting Black pick a top right sequence that works for him and against us, I'd rather call for Black to show his hand and then pick the lower right joseki we want.
@TJ: I love it, though your
is not quite ambitious enough (see above) Your choice was my second favourite move from my analysis in the hidden observer chunk before you suggested your move.-
Redundant
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Re: Teamovitch #1
I dismissed this as horrible, due to a loose pincer here attacking both of our stones on that side. Black can get a pretty good splitting attach going on. There might be some salvation in starting a big fight by pressing after the pincer.
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topazg
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Re: Teamovitch #1
Redundant wrote:I dismissed this as horrible, due to a loose pincer here attacking both of our stones on that side. Black can get a pretty good splitting attach going on. There might be some salvation in starting a big fight by pressing after the pincer.
I'm not sure Black has a good loose pincer, because of the gap:
For example, this one allows the two point extension above, which means we can respond to the lower right, perhaps with taisha. And the side hoshi means we can respond at the top as we have a two point extension on the lower side. I figure it's too wide for Black to properly pincer both White stones. It's not the same as with two approaches against 4-4 stones (which is still standard handicap fare, so not unreasonable play anyway when Black has a stone in each corner), as the extra intersection makes a big severity difference.
$$Wcm8 Move 8 - B:0 - W:0
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$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Move 8 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
For example, this one allows the two point extension above, which means we can respond to the lower right, perhaps with taisha. And the side hoshi means we can respond at the top as we have a two point extension on the lower side. I figure it's too wide for Black to properly pincer both White stones. It's not the same as with two approaches against 4-4 stones (which is still standard handicap fare, so not unreasonable play anyway when Black has a stone in each corner), as the extra intersection makes a big severity difference.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Teamovitch #1
Post by Joaz Banbeck »
To observers:
Hehehehe...a mere four moves into the game and already their captain is unhappy with the troops. I wonder how soon the flogging starts.
That unhappiness may explain why half of their moves have been theoretically iffy. Not only is move 6 taking a side when two corners are incomplete, but move 8 makes a hoshi kakari ( which Yang calls a third class move, BTW ) when there was a shimari to be filled in the upper left, and a kakari to be answered in the lower right ( both second class moves ), and they did neither. I'm amazed that nobody suggested the taisha - I'm assuming that it would have been played in preference to R14 if somebody had suggested it.
White's play, although theoretically inexact, is not clearly bad. It is very easy for black to play one or two slack moves and let white take a 30-point side while stitching his misplaced stones into a coherent whole. Black's next move must be surgically precise. Here we switch from abstract principles to tactical considerations.
Noting that a move is theoretically iffy is not the same as knowing a practical way of punishing it. Let's have a closer look at the pros and cons of the various stones:
* Our two stones in the lower left are as solid as one could ask for. They seem to lack expandability, for their natural extension is impeded by white's stone at C9.
* Our hoshi stone has been kakaried, but there is plenty of room in that corner and the adjacent sides, so I'm not worried. It can be answered with a westward tobi or kiema, or with a pincer of some sort.
* Our 3-4 stone in the lower right has corner access for easy life, and if white prevents that, it can slide westward along the side to friends. It could be used to pincer their 5-3 stone.
* Their 5-3 stone in that corner has slightly lesser access to the corner, and can slide along the right side. The closest stone along the right side is currently white.
* Their 5-4 stone in the upper right is tricky to approach, but someday we should find a way to get the corner before they get an easy shimari. Barring that, since it is high we may want to undercut it around C12 or C13.
* Their C9 stone is simply a spoiler, having few good territorial pospects of its own. It seems to do best if it can link to the 5-4 stone. Sliding south to C6 is mediocre territory, but it does threaten to help an invasion of the corner under some circumstances.
* Their latest, at R14, can live by sliding into the corner or by sliding down the side.
Putting it in diagram form, the shaded areas below seem to be the tactically important places to play. ( Note that I am not including something around 'a' or 'b'; they are big, but not urgent. All the shaded areas affect the life and/or death possibilities of some stones, whereas 'a' and 'b' do not. )
Putting it in diagram form shows one anomaly: all of the shaded areas are separated by stones, such that a stone played in one shaded area does not greatly affect another, except for the two shaded boxes on the right. This proximity suggests that a move in one of them might seriously change the character of the other.
My gut feel without reading is that our next move should be on the right side. Maybe pincer one white stone? Maybe the other? Maybe one stone that tries to weakly pincer both? That requires some reading, and I'll delay that until I have some suggestions.
topazg wrote:Welcome to Graham's Go Grumbles ...
Hehehehe...a mere four moves into the game and already their captain is unhappy with the troops. I wonder how soon the flogging starts.
That unhappiness may explain why half of their moves have been theoretically iffy. Not only is move 6 taking a side when two corners are incomplete, but move 8 makes a hoshi kakari ( which Yang calls a third class move, BTW ) when there was a shimari to be filled in the upper left, and a kakari to be answered in the lower right ( both second class moves ), and they did neither. I'm amazed that nobody suggested the taisha - I'm assuming that it would have been played in preference to R14 if somebody had suggested it.
White's play, although theoretically inexact, is not clearly bad. It is very easy for black to play one or two slack moves and let white take a 30-point side while stitching his misplaced stones into a coherent whole. Black's next move must be surgically precise. Here we switch from abstract principles to tactical considerations.
Noting that a move is theoretically iffy is not the same as knowing a practical way of punishing it. Let's have a closer look at the pros and cons of the various stones:
* Our two stones in the lower left are as solid as one could ask for. They seem to lack expandability, for their natural extension is impeded by white's stone at C9.
* Our hoshi stone has been kakaried, but there is plenty of room in that corner and the adjacent sides, so I'm not worried. It can be answered with a westward tobi or kiema, or with a pincer of some sort.
* Our 3-4 stone in the lower right has corner access for easy life, and if white prevents that, it can slide westward along the side to friends. It could be used to pincer their 5-3 stone.
* Their 5-3 stone in that corner has slightly lesser access to the corner, and can slide along the right side. The closest stone along the right side is currently white.
* Their 5-4 stone in the upper right is tricky to approach, but someday we should find a way to get the corner before they get an easy shimari. Barring that, since it is high we may want to undercut it around C12 or C13.
* Their C9 stone is simply a spoiler, having few good territorial pospects of its own. It seems to do best if it can link to the 5-4 stone. Sliding south to C6 is mediocre territory, but it does threaten to help an invasion of the corner under some circumstances.
* Their latest, at R14, can live by sliding into the corner or by sliding down the side.
Putting it in diagram form, the shaded areas below seem to be the tactically important places to play. ( Note that I am not including something around 'a' or 'b'; they are big, but not urgent. All the shaded areas affect the life and/or death possibilities of some stones, whereas 'a' and 'b' do not. )
$$Wc
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$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . ? ? . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . b . . ? ? . X . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . ? ? . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . b . . ? ? . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . ? ? . . . . . a . . ? ? . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . ? . X . ? . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . ? ? . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . b . . ? ? . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Putting it in diagram form shows one anomaly: all of the shaded areas are separated by stones, such that a stone played in one shaded area does not greatly affect another, except for the two shaded boxes on the right. This proximity suggests that a move in one of them might seriously change the character of the other.
My gut feel without reading is that our next move should be on the right side. Maybe pincer one white stone? Maybe the other? Maybe one stone that tries to weakly pincer both? That requires some reading, and I'll delay that until I have some suggestions.
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
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Jedo
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Re: Teamovitch #1
BIC
Hmm, follow up on the lower right, respond at the upper right or split down the middle...yet another interesting position. I'm leaning towards some kind of splitting move at this point.
"There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level." -- Bruce Lee
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Jedo
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Re: Teamovitch #1
Alright, here's my suggestion:
Hmm, another unusual move by white. White must have felt that responding immediately to our kakari would have been too passive. If we've reached the position where white can't afford to respond to a normal approach, then I think this is a good thing. In fact, white's latest reminds me of a ploy used by white in 4 stone games:
I won't go so far as to say that black has been tricked, but the Mt. Fuji formation is very good for white. Specifically, the value is that white's last move is a 2 for 1 deal; it is an extension from both sides. Some might argue that in a handicap game black can afford to play this way, but if you're going to make such passive moves as 6 and 8, why even play go in the first place?
Instead, black may try to split white:
Black may split white with something like this. White will most likely continue by playing jumping exchanges against both corners and then attacking the splitting stone. Black will be in for a real fight since white is four stones stronger, but isn't this the point of playing a handicap game in the first place?
However, there is something nice in our game: white is not four stones stronger. This resort to handicap tactics I think provides us an opportunity. The board position as it stands:
I'll start by saying that I think playing anywhere other than the right side of the board makes no sense, as this is clearly the most important side right now with multiple groups.
I don't like moves such as a and b, as they seem to play into white's hands.
These are all some options. I rejected d and c because I feel that if we are going to actively pincer one stone it should be the bottom one, as the unbalanced corner is a more volatile position since white can't just jump into the corner. Although it was a tough call, I next rejected e because I feel that it is too much in no man's land; it is too distant to quite act as a pincer on either corner:
This is just one possible continuation, but due to our high position white should have a fairly easy time diving under. I don't want to split low, because I don't want to give white a chance to attack that stone:
This is one way that could happen. This leads me to my last two options:
Both of these pincers seem like reasonable moves. A is certainly tighter and exerts pressure on the white stone. However, I think that b is the better choice. This is because it has the dual purpose of pressuring the other white stone. We've all heard of extension-cum-pincers, well this seems to be a pincer-cum-pincer. How can we pass up the chance to try and do two things at once? It is very hard to predict where things will go from here, but here's some possibilities:
This seems like all our stones are working efficiently together and are splitting white up. White could also try something like this:
I think in this position our groups are all stronger than white's, and so we should welcome an outcome like this where we hold both adjacent corners. And in this position it's our move. So to conclude:
This is my suggestion. I believe white has given us the opportunity for an active dual-purpose move, and we must seize it.
$$Wcm8 Move 8 - B:0 - W:0
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$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Move 8 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I won't go so far as to say that black has been tricked, but the Mt. Fuji formation is very good for white. Specifically, the value is that white's last move is a 2 for 1 deal; it is an extension from both sides. Some might argue that in a handicap game black can afford to play this way, but if you're going to make such passive moves as 6 and 8, why even play go in the first place?
Instead, black may try to split white:
$$Wcm8 Move 8 - B:0 - W:0
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Move 8 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Black may split white with something like this. White will most likely continue by playing jumping exchanges against both corners and then attacking the splitting stone. Black will be in for a real fight since white is four stones stronger, but isn't this the point of playing a handicap game in the first place?
However, there is something nice in our game: white is not four stones stronger. This resort to handicap tactics I think provides us an opportunity. The board position as it stands:
$$Wcm8 Move 8 - B:0 - W:0
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Move 8 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I'll start by saying that I think playing anywhere other than the right side of the board makes no sense, as this is clearly the most important side right now with multiple groups.
$$Wcm8 Move 8 - B:0 - W:0
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . a . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . a . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Move 8 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . a . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I don't like moves such as a and b, as they seem to play into white's hands.
$$Wcm8 Move 8 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 5 3 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . 6 . 4 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 5 3 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . 6 . 4 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Move 8 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 5 3 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . 6 . 4 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
$$Wcm8 Move 8 - B:0 - W:0
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . e . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . e . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Move 8 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . e . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
These are all some options. I rejected d and c because I feel that if we are going to actively pincer one stone it should be the bottom one, as the unbalanced corner is a more volatile position since white can't just jump into the corner. Although it was a tough call, I next rejected e because I feel that it is too much in no man's land; it is too distant to quite act as a pincer on either corner:
$$Wcm8 Move 8 - B:0 - W:0
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 4 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 4 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Move 8 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 4 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This is just one possible continuation, but due to our high position white should have a fairly easy time diving under. I don't want to split low, because I don't want to give white a chance to attack that stone:
$$Wcm8 Move 8 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 4 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . 6 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 4 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . 6 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Move 8 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 4 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . 6 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This is one way that could happen. This leads me to my last two options:
$$Wcm8 Move 8 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Move 8 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Both of these pincers seem like reasonable moves. A is certainly tighter and exerts pressure on the white stone. However, I think that b is the better choice. This is because it has the dual purpose of pressuring the other white stone. We've all heard of extension-cum-pincers, well this seems to be a pincer-cum-pincer. How can we pass up the chance to try and do two things at once? It is very hard to predict where things will go from here, but here's some possibilities:
$$Wcm8 Move 8 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . 6 X 3 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . 6 X 3 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Move 8 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . 6 X 3 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This seems like all our stones are working efficiently together and are splitting white up. White could also try something like this:
$$Wcm8 Move 8 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . 4 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . 4 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Move 8 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . 4 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I think in this position our groups are all stronger than white's, and so we should welcome an outcome like this where we hold both adjacent corners. And in this position it's our move. So to conclude:
$$Wcm8 Move 8 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Move 8 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This is my suggestion. I believe white has given us the opportunity for an active dual-purpose move, and we must seize it.
"There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level." -- Bruce Lee
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Teamovitch #1
Post by Joaz Banbeck »
To observers:
I like Jedo's logic that gets to the right side. The pincer seems good, but I must read a bit.
If I can get two other pincers nominated I will be a happy captain.
If I can get two other pincers nominated I will be a happy captain.
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Re: Teamovitch #1
Black Internal Chat
My first instinct is to protect the corner by playing z. However black can play the knights move at m or n to try to seal that corner off also......
I like the pincers at a and b, or the approach at y.
Pincers at a or b:
White has two choices... run at a or b, or play c,d... If White runs the black plays at e pincering again... while creating base...
If white plays c,d then Black now has two weak white groups to attack...
Approach at y:
Anyways.... this is what is going through my head right now...... but it is pretty late so I will look it over after some sleep...
$$Bcm9 Move 9 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . z . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . y . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . f c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , o . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . o . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . m . , . n . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . z . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . y . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . f c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , o . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . o . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . m . , . n . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Move 9 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . z . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . y . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . f c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , o . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . o . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . m . , . n . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
My first instinct is to protect the corner by playing z. However black can play the knights move at m or n to try to seal that corner off also......
I like the pincers at a and b, or the approach at y.
Pincers at a or b:
$$Bcm9 Move 9 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , c . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , c . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Move 9 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , c . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
White has two choices... run at a or b, or play c,d... If White runs the black plays at e pincering again... while creating base...
If white plays c,d then Black now has two weak white groups to attack...
Approach at y:
$$Bcm9 Move 9 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Move 9 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
$$Bcm9 Move 9 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 4 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 4 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Move 9 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 4 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Anyways.... this is what is going through my head right now...... but it is pretty late so I will look it over after some sleep...
I'm thinking...
-
fwiffo
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Re: Teamovitch #1
My suggestion for :
I agree with my teammate's analysis; the right side is most important, and a pincer seems like the right play. I am not fond of any of the high pincers generally, and not fond of any of the wider pincers in this specific case. A wide pincer of either white stone (a-d) does not put quite enough pressure on the other; the non-pincered stone always has room for a 2-space extension. So they all feel like half-measures, and I hate half-measures.
So that leaves tight pincers e and my choice for. Of the two, I feel like using the 4-4 stone for a pincer is more natural, trading away the corner is acceptable, and the most common joseki gives us a natural continuation.
Ostensibly, the joseki ends with sente for us, though black usually wants another move here. Either extending the wall upward, neutralizing the aji of
somehow, or extending along the side. Here an extension in the vicinity of a (maybe not exactly at a, but the general area) is dual purpose. Several other paths white could choose in the upper right have similar results.
If white chooses the variation where he jumps up and gets a floating wall, I think that's fine; I think that joseki is weak for white generally. I also think white playing away from the pincer would be good for us.
:$$Bcm9 Move 9 - B:0 - W:0
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , b . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , b . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Move 9 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , b . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I agree with my teammate's analysis; the right side is most important, and a pincer seems like the right play. I am not fond of any of the high pincers generally, and not fond of any of the wider pincers in this specific case. A wide pincer of either white stone (a-d) does not put quite enough pressure on the other; the non-pincered stone always has room for a 2-space extension. So they all feel like half-measures, and I hate half-measures.
So that leaves tight pincers e and my choice for
. Of the two, I feel like using the 4-4 stone for a pincer is more natural, trading away the corner is acceptable, and the most common joseki gives us a natural continuation.$$Bcm9 Move 9 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . 4 2 8 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 5 X 3 6 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . 4 2 8 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 5 X 3 6 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Move 9 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . 4 2 8 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 5 X 3 6 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Ostensibly, the joseki ends with sente for us, though black usually wants another move here. Either extending the wall upward, neutralizing the aji of
somehow, or extending along the side. Here an extension in the vicinity of a (maybe not exactly at a, but the general area) is dual purpose. Several other paths white could choose in the upper right have similar results.If white chooses the variation where he jumps up and gets a floating wall, I think that's fine; I think that joseki is weak for white generally. I also think white playing away from the pincer would be good for us.
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