I'd be very surprised if it is not as magicwand has predicted though I would expect b over a.
Prokovich Game #2
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Goceman86
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I still expect it to continue like this.-
Goceman86
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Re: Prokovich Game #2
Well since marcus was on the money with his prediction i will play it until that point
but i do have a question why did black play o17 and not o16: what exactly does o17 say? is it just taking territory or is there some type of offensive to this lower patter or the Fuseki
next moves:
but i do have a question why did black play o17 and not o16: what exactly does o17 say? is it just taking territory or is there some type of offensive to this lower patter or the Fuseki
next moves:
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Tooveli
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Re: Prokovich Game #2
Goceman86 wrote:but i do have a question why did black play o17 and not o16: what exactly does o17 say? is it just taking territory or is there some type of offensive to this lower patter or the Fuseki
If Black plays o16 then a move on the top becomes more urgent. Playing o17 means that Black can happily switch elsewhere (after the local position is settled). My guess is that Black wants to return to the bottom left as soon as possible. Because the top left will be solid (third line) White's next move there is less big if black gets gote in the bottom left.
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Goceman86
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Re: Prokovich Game #2
Tooveli wrote:Goceman86 wrote:but i do have a question why did black play o17 and not o16: what exactly does o17 say? is it just taking territory or is there some type of offensive to this lower patter or the Fuseki
If Black plays o16 then a move on the top becomes more urgent. Playing o17 means that Black can happily switch elsewhere (after the local position is settled). My guess is that Black wants to return to the bottom left as soon as possible. Because the top left will be solid (third line) White's next move there is less big if black gets gote in the bottom left.
ok sounds like i got it but playing o16 means that he cant switch somewhere lese why? is it because of white R17 is that what we are worried about?
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Re: Prokovich Game #2
I think what's being said is that after 1-4, Black really wants to play near a to avoid being undercut. But on this board a play near b, c and d are desirable, so Black wants sente. With :B1: in its actual location, a play at a is unnecessary (and pointless in fact).
Of course, I'm not confident enough to say for sure that this is the issue.
Of course, I'm not confident enough to say for sure that this is the issue.
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Re: Prokovich Game #2
Yes, if black plays like this, he almost certainly will want to follow-up with a move around 'a'. Otherwise, a white move around 'b' will become a huge pain. Remember the proverb(?): The fourth line is for expansion, the third line is for settling. By settling on the third line, black can play somewhere else. However, playing high may be a perfectly acceptable move: I'm just explaining the advantages of going low.
I have my own question. What is the purpose of black splitting white here with
immediately? Why is not better to just calmly extend to 'a' and save the weakness for later? Will white play differently somehow?We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
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Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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Re: Prokovich Game #2
^ Hmmm, those variations look a bit weak. I think it's better for black to start a fight. This is my prediction (I think it's the most common pro pattern, and it's what I would play):
Dusk Eagle, I don't have 100% knowledge of all variations of this joseki (there are quite a few), but it's probably all right for black to shimari too - it's just a tad easy on white. In the most basic variation (of course
is only one of the possibilities), white has almost zero aji in his group and he got the slide into black's corner. If black omits 
, a white move there would be big and almost sente, threatening to unsettle black's group.
If, on the other hand, you sacrifice a stone first, then this is a basic "Japanese-style" variation. Black exploits the aji of to the max to get the corner in sente.
Pros nowadays think the variation above is good for black. Therefore, variations such as the one in the game were developed.
Dusk Eagle, I don't have 100% knowledge of all variations of this joseki (there are quite a few), but it's probably all right for black to shimari too - it's just a tad easy on white. In the most basic variation (of course
is only one of the possibilities), white has almost zero aji in his group and he got the slide into black's corner. If black omits , a white move there would be big and almost sente, threatening to unsettle black's group.If, on the other hand, you sacrifice a stone first, then this is a basic "Japanese-style" variation. Black exploits the aji of
to the max to get the corner in sente.Pros nowadays think the variation above is good for black. Therefore, variations such as the one in the game were developed.
My name is Gijs, from Utrecht, NL.
When in doubt, play the most aggressive move
When in doubt, play the most aggressive move
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Tooveli
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Re: Prokovich Game #2
Goceman86 wrote: ok sounds like i got it but playing o16 means that he cant switch somewhere lese why? is it because of white R17 is that what we are worried about?
Thanks hyperpape (I read your name as hyper-ape at first) and Dusk Eagle. That's what I was trying to say!
For simplicity, lets say we are choosing between the following two outcomes:
and
both these diagrams show reasonable local continuations. In the top diagram - Black really wants to play at a (or b if feeling adventurous) following the proverb
Dusk Eagle wrote:The fourth line is for expansion, the third line is for settling.
and making territory that is closed (third line) on both sides. The ideal low-high-low formation.
In the second diagram, Black already has closed off his territory at the top so a followup move there decreases in value.
Considering the whole board, there is a place that Black would like to play (c). By attempting to go for the second variation over the first, Black can happily switch to the bottom left leaving no worries behind. In the first diagram, if Black switches to the bottom left then he will feel uneasy about leaving a big move on top that White might get to first.
Why did I suggest c over the other possible moves in the bottom left? I'm just following the same principle as before.
The triangled stones on the bottom are low, showing that it is not urgent to grow this area. The circled stones on the left side of the board are high. The left side is more important than the bottom.
Finally, White may not play as assumed above - he might instead play 4 as the slide (below). If black played high at b, then the corner would still be open so White wouldn't want to settle it (and lose the chance of invading at 3-3) with the slide. However, with 3 on the third line the corner is less open so White is happy to exchange 4 for 5 and make Black cramped.
Black feels too cramped in the diagram above, so he is unlikely to let this happen. Therefore, he won't answer 4 in the corner and will instead play as below. White can then naturally exchange 6 for 7, taking the corner. Black must answer at 7 because his stones at the top will otherwise be without a base when White pincers. Now that White is strong in the top right (the corner gave him a base) he can start a big fight by extending to 8.