there is something that smells in asian game.

[hyperpape]

This is a good example of where the ref needs to be a strong player. I would personally prefer a ruleset and timing system that avoids this kind of scenario, but I don't fetishize formal rules so much that I think these rules are unacceptable.

[Magicwand]

there is something that smells in asian game.

in the mixed pair game Park jung hwan - lee selah vs ryusing - tangyi ref declared chinese pair won the game.
chinese players only had 1 min left in the game and having taugh time making move. (if time runout they lose)
ref interfere and made decision that chinese player are ahead and won the game.

that really stinks.

The ref did not declare. the players resigned the game.
We are talking about the truth here, don't be misleading please.

i am getting my info from tygem and they didnt say anything about players resigning.
i do not have any intension of misleading but i would like to know the truth.
i dont think info found in chinese website is reliable either.
we will wait and see..

[John Fairbairn]

To turn to more fragrant aspects, I was pleased to see Joanne Missingham, partnering Zhou Junxun, start of so well. They won their first three games. Admittedly the opposition has not been too taxing (Vietnam was one) but they did beat a pair of pros, Yang Shihai and Jian Ying, a husband-and-wife team playing for Hong Kong.

[gosuki]

http://www.gz2010.cn/10/1117/17/6LN7GQ2N007804B7_2.html

提倡使用电子钟计时。使用机械指针式钟计时，以计时钟的红针倒下，分针、秒针均超过“12”为超时。当计时钟发生故障时，裁判长应根据实际情况作出临时更换计时钟、解释计时钟读数、对某方超时判负等果断裁决。裁判长有权制止无理消耗对方时间的非正常行棋。

The translation of this rule has already done in #14:"The referee has the right to stop the act of wasting the opponent's time with abnormal moves".

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I thought the Korean team was not well informed of this rule, but now I find I am wrong.
this rule is official(announced on Nov 17).It is translated, and delivered to the coach of the Korean team (for sure. there is news about it in both Chinese and Korean sites).
The Korean team is supposed to know this rule, but as we have seen, whether "meaningless moves" exist or not, the Korean team wasn't aware of it until yesterday.

ok, we were using different rules in AG...how can't there be controversies?

[hiyayang]

The time line of these events seems a bit curious, as it made the news (http://post.weiqi.tom.com/s/80000B013768.html) ("Strict rules for rengo games made Yang Jaeho "furious", Korean team in panic mode") that the Korean coach was unaware of one of the rules ("a player must place stones and press the clock with the same hand") until 11/19. If the official rules were announced (and presumably translated and delivered) on 11/17, what happened between 11/17 and 11/19?

In fact, the rule that Yang 9p took issue with in that news was just a few lines away from the rule that caused the controversy later. (They were listed as items #2 and #7 respectively in post #14.) If the Korean team didn't get the written rules in advance, then I'd say the host was at fault; otherwise, I think the blame should be placed squarely on the Korean coach for failing to read the rules carefully.

It is worth pointing out the following about the Chinese rules for SD games to clarify some misunderstandings about them:

1. (item #3 in post #14) Filling dames must be clocked. One can infer from that that filling dames are considered the "normal moves" that the rule allows (as opposed to the "abnormal moves" that the rule item #7 prohibits). Therefore, one could lose on time when filling dames and the referee would have no right to intervene, regardless of who is ahead on the board.

However, there is an escape clause for someone who is way ahead on the board while short on time:

2. (item #4 in post #14) One player may opt to forgo his/her right to move, allowing the clock to stop [therefore avoiding to lose on time] and yielding all contestable points to the opponent. The referee is responsible for determining their territories.


In this incident, the Korean players were said to be engaging in the act of "填子", which usually means playing in the opponent's or their own territory with no benefit whatsoever other than wasting the opponent's time. It is different from playing normal endgame moves (including filling dames), which would be allowed by the rules.

Also worth pointing out is that the rules do not give the referee the right to declare a winner. The referee has the right to ask a player to stop playing certain moves (sort of like a "cease-and-desist" order) and the game would resume. One may wonder why the Korean players decided to resign insted of resuming the game (with so many legal endgame moves left to play) and what was discussed between them and the Korean referee Kim Su-Chang 9p (thank you TMark!) that appeared to have resulted in their decision.

[Magicwand]

In this incident, the Korean players were said to be engaging in the act of "填子", which usually means playing in the opponent's or their own territory with no benefit whatsoever other than wasting the opponent's time. It is different from playing normal endgame moves (including filling dames), which would be allowed by the rules.

if you downloaded the sequence then you will no that there were no such moves played by korean players.
ref stopped the game when there were only 1 min left for chinese players and they pressed the clock with wrong hand.
clearly showing that time were major factor of the game.
the game was not that clearly finished and still many moves to play and there was not reason for ref to stop the game.
i do not believe that korean players resigned as chinese website claims.

[Joaz Banbeck]

Still waiting for an SGF.

[hiyayang]

In this incident, the Korean players were said to be engaging in the act of "填子", which usually means playing in the opponent's or their own territory with no benefit whatsoever other than wasting the opponent's time. It is different from playing normal endgame moves (including filling dames), which would be allowed by the rules.

if you downloaded the sequence then you will no that there were no such moves played by korean players.
ref stopped the game when there were only 1 min left for chinese players and they pressed the clock with wrong hand.
clearly showing that time were major factor of the game.

If you were referring to the game record I provided the link to in post #7, I already indicated it was incomplete. There were 20 or 30 more moves after move #261 (it is not clear to me whether "20 or 30" was the number of white moves alone or both black and white moves). If you have the game record that shows moves beyond #261, I'd like to see it.

At move #261, black had over 1 min left and white, 4 min. The game was not suspended until 20 or 30 moves after move #261. In fact, that is when the Chinese team got a 1 pt penalty for failing to remove all captured stones from the board.

the game was not that clearly finished and still many moves to play and there was not reason for ref to stop the game.

Exactly. It would be against the rule for the referee to stop the game. I believe the Chief Referee merely suspended the game to allow time for some communication with the players.

i do not believe that korean players resigned as chinese website claims.

Do you believe Kim Su-Chang 9p was involved in the incident? If it was such a controversial matter, why didn't he object?

[hiyayang]

Looks like we are not going to see the complete game record after all, as the organizing committee just announced that they would not make public the game moves beyond #261. The reason for that decision and the detail of what happened before and after the incident were given in http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_593a18380100ma0l.html?tj=1. It is a long post. In essence, the Korean team accepted the result and acknowledged that their moves beyond #261 in the game were due to their misunderstanding of the rules.

[kokomi]

there is something that smells in asian game.

in the mixed pair game Park jung hwan - lee selah vs ryusing - tangyi ref declared chinese pair won the game.
chinese players only had 1 min left in the game and having taugh time making move. (if time runout they lose)
ref interfere and made decision that chinese player are ahead and won the game.

that really stinks.

The ref did not declare. the players resigned the game.
We are talking about the truth here, don't be misleading please.

i am getting my info from tygem and they didnt say anything about players resigning.
i do not have any intension of misleading but i would like to know the truth.
i dont think info found in chinese website is reliable either.
we will wait and see..

Ah, sorry, my bad.
The news from China said the players resigned after having talked with the Korean chef ref.
And I thought that was what happened.
So, ok, one of the media did not tell the truth. And now we don't know what happened exactly.

[tapir]

Who cares now about this incident? Both South Korean pairs qualified for the semi finals anyway. The big news should be the pair on place one however.

Do anyone know how they break ties (SOS seems to be first tie breaker, but afterwards?)

[cdybeijing]

I kind of care that the OP stuck in a dig against the host nation without much to go on.

[hiyayang]

The latest link from Chinese news source: http://yayun2010.sina.com.cn/go/2010-11-22/13345327746.shtml. It appears to have been translated from an article on cyberoro, as it even included a screen shot of the Korean web page. The caption under the second photo says "Korean coach Yang Jaeho explaining to Korean media reporters details of the incident". The first paragraph of the text ends by saying that this is the second time Yang 9p publicly affirmed his support of the referees' decision.

I assume OP would have no problem locating the original article on cyberoro and, since it is from a Korean news source, believing what it says, it is about time for him to bring the thread to a closure.

[John Fairbairn]

I assume OP would have no problem locating the original article on cyberoro and, since it is from a Korean news source, believing what it says, it is about time for him to bring the thread to a closure.

I agree completely. There is nothing that non-participants can usefully add except nationalistic bluster.

There have been several incidents to do with rules in recent years, but they are rarely contentious issues. Most are just careless "oops" incidents. The commonest thread appears to be players forgetting that they are playing under a rule set other than their own. This is not just when playing abroad, as in the case of a Chinese player tossing a captured stone back into the opponent's bowl when playing in Korea earlier this year, only to find to her surprise she had lost by half a point. One of the saddest cases was a game between two Chinese in China, where a 9-dan carefully counted the game and calculated he was one point behind. With just two dames left to fill -one each - he knew he couldn't catch up. so he resigned instead of going through the tedious counting procedure. The problem was, this was a Nongshim Cup qualifier, a Korean-sponosred event, so Korean rules were in force. Under Korean counting he would have won by half a point.

These are typical mistakes, and they have nothing to do with national rivalries. They would be rectified easily if professionals would act professionally.

Even if there are cases of rivalry spilling over into a tinge of nationalism, to those who wish to overemphasise this I would say that some of us can remember it was not so very long ago that the international events could not even take place. Further, we should remember the many positive happenings at the individual player level. In the case of China/Korea I think the goodwill engendered by players like Mok Chin-seok and Yi Yeong-ku regularly playing in the China Weiqi League offers a much stronger and thoroughly wholesome "smell".

[nagano]

International Standard Ruleset.