Teamovitch #1

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fwiffo
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by fwiffo »

I'm flying out for Thanksgiving weekend in a couple hours, so my participation will drop off somewhat until I'm back.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

tj86430 wrote:
kokomi wrote:this doesn't look like a Dan game for me :lol:

Well, it could be because the players suggesting the moves are kyu level. ;-)

I don't feel that I have yet been forced to choose an inferior move. As a matter of style, I might have played differently ( I really wanted C12 for our last move! ), but I've never been able to say that neither A, B, or C are as good as D.
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topazg
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by topazg »

kokomi wrote:this doesn't look like a Dan game for me :lol:
But it's interesting


I echo Joaz's points here - well, mostly anyway, a couple of times I would have chosen a move that wasn't suggested, but really it's a case of style and playing the options given. It's been a lot more restrictive and at the same time a lot more open than I expected, a very strange experience :D
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by topazg »

For observers:

Hmmm, another nice move by Black. I'm beginning to dislike my choice of approaching the top right, it feels like we've suffered slightly on the right edge despite the possible value of killing that stone. The direction switch proposed by chew may have been better.

Still, points I really want:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm16 Move 17 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . X . . a . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . b . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


However, we do need to think about the left side too. I'm very tempted to go with Red's choice in the lower right, but it may be overplay, as the top left is so urgent. Problem is, I think the lower right is urgent too :S

This is one very confusing position.


EDIT: Also for observers

And why oh why is no-one considering the kosumi as it is a standard joseki here?

Something exciting and fighty perhaps?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20 Move 20 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . B 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X . 4 5 . 7 . . a . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , W 6 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 8 . 0 . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After 30 at "a", White can then descend in the top left as sente against the corner I think, which means we get a very adequate left side:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30 Move 30 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O . O . . 1 . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 O , O X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm35 Move 35 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X 1 X O . O . . O . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O O 3 O X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 6 5 O 4 X . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 8 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . 9 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So, the likelihood is Black protects his central group on :b31:, we get :w32: in sente against the corner, then get to play in the lower right:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30 Move 30 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O . O . . 1 . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 O , O X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . 5 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Maybe something like this ?
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topazg
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by topazg »

To observers wondering what's so special about the lower right move?

Not only does it disrupt the lower side, but it also prepares this cut:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm34 Move 34 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O . O . . O . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O O , O X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . 9 X 3 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . 1 6 5 4 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Other resistance?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm36 Move 36 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O . O . . O . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O O , O X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X 1 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . O . 2 3 X 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 4 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm36 Move 36 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O . O . . O . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O O , O X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X 1 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . O . 2 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 7 4 5 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Redundant »

Chew:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm16 Move 17 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . b O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , c . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . a . 2 . 1 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This leaves aji at a for us, and now black needs to settle in the corner either by getting out with something like b, or c to take the corner. Either way, we remove aji from black's lone stone on the right.

The 3-3 invasion just doesn't feel important to respond to right now. Especially because the 5-4 is something one might play against a naked 3-3 move.
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Chew Terr »

White Move Nomination:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This may seem slow and all, but I've been trying to adopt a bit more of a solid, thick style lately. They say to fix your defects before you attack, and this is the biggest one we have. If we don't capture solidly, black can get out, leaving us with weak groups in the area. AFTER this, I like the idea of attacking in the bottom or pressuring in the top left. However, let's take some points and become strong first. Black doesn't seem to have an amazingly powerful move anywhere, though the top left pincer would be interesting. However, as we already have a counter-pincer in place, it's less urgent than this, I think. We have one aggressive move from Red, one defensive move from me. What's it going to be, TJ?
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by tj86430 »

My suggestion:
I like Red's suggestion, and Chew's has it's merits too, although I think that we are investing too many moves in the right side.

I feel that we need one suggestion that answers the black invasion in the upper left corner just to give our captain enough variety. I'm now considering the following:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . d . . . f . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . a . , . . . . e , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . b c O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm not sure if any of those is joseki, but I'll try to explain my thoughts behind them:
a) to c) work together with our stone at C9.
a) puts most pressure to the invading stone, and I think they would need to answer it unless they want to sacrifice. I'm not sure if we would get sente, however.
b) is my original thought, it's more conservative than a), but still puts some pressure against the invading stone.
c) is the most conservative, but black can ignore it altogether
d) should be joseki, but it leaves our left side open at the top. Surely we could build an east facing wall, but black can pretty much neutralize it by playing around K17.
e) or f) is the most recent idea that came to me, it really doesn't much by itself, but after that d) would be a strong followup.

I believe I should go with my first instinct, therefore I nominate:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . W . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by topazg »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18 Move 18 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . 1 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Comments to follow...

But briefly, I didn't like the top left option, chew's move feels very big but too slow (though that's probably hitting my unreasonably strong dislike of gote as opposed to the move being bad), and Red's move I've been itching to play. I actually think the top left is more urgent, and would have played either the kosumi I mentioned in my last post or the D17, to seal in and get good outside thickness, but I don't think the option I was given was good enough to play up there and give Black the corner so easily. Instead, let's mix things up a bit and have some fun!
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by tj86430 »

Topazg: Is the latest hidden part only for observers or also for white team?
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Hmmm... Something has gone wrong somewhere. Black team or white team, I cannot say. I thought that this was an overplay by white. Either Topazg has overlooked something or I have.

Ok, it is possible that his teammates gave him three terrible suggestions, and he had to choose the least worst. But I regard that as unlikely.

@teammates: This could be treacherous. Please analyze carefully.
I think that the first order of business is to decide if we want to kill it, or let it live and then profit by threatening it.
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Jedo »

black suggestion
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18 Move 18 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . 1 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Joaz makes a good point; while tenuki from the upper left makes sense, this move does seem a bit reckless with the aji of our pincer stone still floating around. Joaz asks if we want to kill it or let it live and make profit. As much as I would like to, killing doesn't really seem reasonable, but that doesn't mean we just have to let white live easy. My suggestion:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18 Move 18 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This seems like a very useful forcing move. White can'r really tenuki without bad things happening:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18 Move 18 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 0 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O 7 O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X 6 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . 3 . . 1 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White may not play this way, but I think it's pretty certain that white will be giving us some serious local profit if he tenukis. And come to think of it, where will white's points come from? We will be far ahead in points. So let's assume white does respond:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18 Move 18 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 2 O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . 4 . 1 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


MY plan is something like this. We can always attach to the 53 stone in an emergency. The good thing though is that as we both run out, the aji of our pincer stone becomes more and more of a problem for white. And once again, we have our points, so the burden of proof will be on white. Since we have that pincer stone and potential eyespace in the corner, I think the while group will be weaker than ours, so the fight will be good for us.
"There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level." -- Bruce Lee
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Jordus »

Black Internal chat:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 1 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . a . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


While playing in the bottom right seems to be the right thing to do since that corner group is in danger, I think playing for the top right corner will invoke white to make a response and still give black sente (not to mention Jedo already recommended the bottom right corner play)... Also I believe the bottom right corner group is not completely lost if white ignores and plays a move down there... For Now I am thinking of playing at :b19:, however (a) and (b) seem interesting to me....
I'm thinking...
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by fwiffo »

OK, I'm back from vacation.

Black chat (I'll have a move suggestion later today):
My initial instinct is that white made an overplay. Jedo's move is the one that seems most obviously correct based on basic principles, and I suspect it is the correct move. But I'd like to come up with a good alternative.
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

fwiffo wrote:...
Black chat ...:
My initial instinct is that white made an overplay. Jedo's move is the one that seems most obviously correct based on basic principles, and I suspect it is the correct move. But I'd like to come up with a good alternative.


I too suspect that Jedo's is best. I wanted to pincer originally, but we may be too low for a successful fight. As the proverb says, 'make fist before striking'. Sure, while we are making a fist, white can make an extension, but it is either a mere two spaces and small, or more than two spaces and subject to being split.
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