very very messy.... (11k vs 12k)

Tyson2011 · Post by **Tyson2011** » Sat May 01, 2010 9:17 am

Loons wrote:Just 'cause no one else seems to mention it... 9 here feels funny to me. I don't really play that family of joseki, but I'd be tempted to press at Q7, extend or just directly tenuki and approach another corner.

i am also not familiar with this joseki...seeing as i have never studied any... i am planning on it once school gets out however, i simply dont have time right now :/

LR24 · Post by **LR24** » Sun May 02, 2010 8:22 am

Concerning white 8 and the response:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 2 . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . , 1 . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . a . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Kogo says black usually plays 1 (Shusaku diagonal) so he can press against white's stone at a. This is why I think white should not tenuki :mrgreen:

. As Loons said, playing a right away could be right.
White 2 is not included into Kogo, but the following is:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 3 . 5 . . . . . $$ | . . 2 X . . . . . . $$ | . . 4 , 1 . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . .[/go]

Concerning the game, maybe this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . a b . . . . . . . $$ | . 2 . X . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , 1 d . 3 c , . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

The a-b exchange is not that big, but annoying. Maybe play 3 at c?
The thing is, if you want to extend along the top, you should probably have played 1 at d. So I think Loons is probably right with pressing at Q7/a in the first diagram. (i'm not that strong either, so better not believe everything I say

)

Tyson2011 · Post by **Tyson2011** » Sun May 02, 2010 9:08 am

in your first diagram... could:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 2 . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . , 1 . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . a . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

also be used effectively? the rest of your post makes quite a bit of sense

....at my skill level, a at that place seems stronger though?

LR24 · Post by **LR24** » Sun May 02, 2010 11:37 am

I think it depends on the position and also on what black wants. Your move makes sense to me because it does not let white get the left side for eye space, thus it's a stronger attack that probably makes white live in the corner or get into the center. On the other hand, the move from kogo rather goes for a big influence on the top side.

Also, after white played 2, you cannot attack the group very severely, as white can play 4.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . $$ | . 2 . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . , 1 . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Also, the move from kogo was rather meant if white tenuki. And here, kogo gives there three options, which also includes your move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . , X . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . a . . . . . . $$ | . . b . . . . . . . $$ | . . c . . . . . . .[/go]

Jonas · Post by **Jonas** » Sun May 02, 2010 1:56 pm

Hey folks!
When you're questioning certain moves i guess you need to consider first the ideas of the moves that were played before the questioned move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . , 1 . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . a . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

When I play the shusaku-kosumi I want thickness on the outside while my opponent gets low(third-line) territory. Therefore a move around 'a' for black should be top priority when white plays tenuki and black get the chance.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . , X . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . b 1 . . . . . . $$ | . . 2 5 . . . . . . $$ | . 4 . 3 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . .[/go]

White does not crawl at 'b' but tries to be ahead so he plays 2. For the same reason (gettingahead) black now plays 3 continuing to press white down. White cant cut directly because of his weak position so he simply secures life with 4 and 6 while black gets his wished thickness.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . , 1 . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Well when I play white I dont like to play along blacks plan, so for white playing '2' himself to jump a line higher (fourth line) is totally natural.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . , 1 . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . a . . . . . . . $$ | . . b . . . . . . .[/go]

Moves like 'a' or 'b' for black are of course possible, depending on what is one the lower side of the board these moves can even be very good, but for me on the first glance these moves dont feel natural, because they're not helping black to build strong thickness (as planed when playing kosumi) but are forcing white to seperate blacks stones into two groups.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . $$ | . 2 3 X . . . . . . $$ | . . . , 1 . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . a . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

The game was played like this. I think 2 and 3 are both mistakes in this early stage of the game. White needs to extend on the side (as mentioned f.e. at 'a'). Grasping some small points in the corner with 2 is to slow, black should tenuki! Answering with 3 is also questionable, bumping whites stone is forcing him to play 4, a very good point (in the endgame). In the end blacks 3 stone helped white to get some points, nothing more

.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Personally in this kind of position I like the 3 space low pincer. It isnt that popular nowadays but the acient go masters were quiet fond of it

Maybe you can post another game of yours and we'll analyse it again, guess there was said enough about this game ^_^

Life In 19x19

very very messy.... (11k vs 12k)

Re: very very messy.... (11k vs 12k)

Re: very very messy.... (11k vs 12k)

Re: very very messy.... (11k vs 12k)

Re: very very messy.... (11k vs 12k)

Re: very very messy.... (11k vs 12k)