i am also not familiar with this joseki...seeing as i have never studied any... i am planning on it once school gets out however, i simply dont have time right now :/Loons wrote:Just 'cause no one else seems to mention it... 9 here feels funny to me. I don't really play that family of joseki, but I'd be tempted to press at Q7, extend or just directly tenuki and approach another corner.
very very messy.... (11k vs 12k)
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Tyson2011
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Re: very very messy.... (11k vs 12k)
"Only a warrior chooses pacifism; others are condemned to it."
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LR24
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Re: very very messy.... (11k vs 12k)
Concerning white 8 and the response:
Kogo says black usually plays 1 (Shusaku diagonal) so he can press against white's stone at a. This is why I think white should not tenuki
. As Loons said, playing a right away could be right.
White 2 is not included into Kogo, but the following is:
Concerning the game, maybe this? The a-b exchange is not that big, but annoying. Maybe play 3 at c?
The thing is, if you want to extend along the top, you should probably have played 1 at d. So I think Loons is probably right with pressing at Q7/a in the first diagram. (i'm not that strong either, so better not believe everything I say
)
Kogo says black usually plays 1 (Shusaku diagonal) so he can press against white's stone at a. This is why I think white should not tenuki
. As Loons said, playing a right away could be right.White 2 is not included into Kogo, but the following is:
Concerning the game, maybe this? The a-b exchange is not that big, but annoying. Maybe play 3 at c?
The thing is, if you want to extend along the top, you should probably have played 1 at d. So I think Loons is probably right with pressing at Q7/a in the first diagram. (i'm not that strong either, so better not believe everything I say
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Tyson2011
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Re: very very messy.... (11k vs 12k)
in your first diagram... could:
also be used effectively? the rest of your post makes quite a bit of sense
....at my skill level, a at that place seems stronger though?
also be used effectively? the rest of your post makes quite a bit of sense
....at my skill level, a at that place seems stronger though?"Only a warrior chooses pacifism; others are condemned to it."
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LR24
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Re: very very messy.... (11k vs 12k)
I think it depends on the position and also on what black wants. Your move makes sense to me because it does not let white get the left side for eye space, thus it's a stronger attack that probably makes white live in the corner or get into the center. On the other hand, the move from kogo rather goes for a big influence on the top side.
Also, after white played 2, you cannot attack the group very severely, as white can play 4.
Also, the move from kogo was rather meant if white tenuki. And here, kogo gives there three options, which also includes your move.
Also, after white played 2, you cannot attack the group very severely, as white can play 4.
Also, the move from kogo was rather meant if white tenuki. And here, kogo gives there three options, which also includes your move.
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Jonas
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Re: very very messy.... (11k vs 12k)
Hey folks!
When you're questioning certain moves i guess you need to consider first the ideas of the moves that were played before the questioned move.
When I play the shusaku-kosumi I want thickness on the outside while my opponent gets low(third-line) territory. Therefore a move around 'a' for black should be top priority when white plays tenuki and black get the chance.
White does not crawl at 'b' but tries to be ahead so he plays 2. For the same reason (gettingahead) black now plays 3 continuing to press white down. White cant cut directly because of his weak position so he simply secures life with 4 and 6 while black gets his wished thickness.
Well when I play white I dont like to play along blacks plan, so for white playing '2' himself to jump a line higher (fourth line) is totally natural.
Moves like 'a' or 'b' for black are of course possible, depending on what is one the lower side of the board these moves can even be very good, but for me on the first glance these moves dont feel natural, because they're not helping black to build strong thickness (as planed when playing kosumi) but are forcing white to seperate blacks stones into two groups.
The game was played like this. I think 2 and 3 are both mistakes in this early stage of the game. White needs to extend on the side (as mentioned f.e. at 'a'). Grasping some small points in the corner with 2 is to slow, black should tenuki! Answering with 3 is also questionable, bumping whites stone is forcing him to play 4, a very good point (in the endgame). In the end blacks 3 stone helped white to get some points, nothing more
.
Personally in this kind of position I like the 3 space low pincer. It isnt that popular nowadays but the acient go masters were quiet fond of it
Maybe you can post another game of yours and we'll analyse it again, guess there was said enough about this game ^_^
When you're questioning certain moves i guess you need to consider first the ideas of the moves that were played before the questioned move.
When I play the shusaku-kosumi I want thickness on the outside while my opponent gets low(third-line) territory. Therefore a move around 'a' for black should be top priority when white plays tenuki and black get the chance.
White does not crawl at 'b' but tries to be ahead so he plays 2. For the same reason (gettingahead) black now plays 3 continuing to press white down. White cant cut directly because of his weak position so he simply secures life with 4 and 6 while black gets his wished thickness.
Well when I play white I dont like to play along blacks plan, so for white playing '2' himself to jump a line higher (fourth line) is totally natural.
Moves like 'a' or 'b' for black are of course possible, depending on what is one the lower side of the board these moves can even be very good, but for me on the first glance these moves dont feel natural, because they're not helping black to build strong thickness (as planed when playing kosumi) but are forcing white to seperate blacks stones into two groups.
The game was played like this. I think 2 and 3 are both mistakes in this early stage of the game. White needs to extend on the side (as mentioned f.e. at 'a'). Grasping some small points in the corner with 2 is to slow, black should tenuki! Answering with 3 is also questionable, bumping whites stone is forcing him to play 4, a very good point (in the endgame). In the end blacks 3 stone helped white to get some points, nothing more
.Personally in this kind of position I like the 3 space low pincer. It isnt that popular nowadays but the acient go masters were quiet fond of it
Maybe you can post another game of yours and we'll analyse it again, guess there was said enough about this game ^_^