there is something that smells in asian game.

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Re: there is something that smells in asian game.

Post by RobertJasiek »

quantumf wrote:to asssume a given set of rules will cover all bases in all cases for all time ignores human nature and ability.


Good rules of play achieve it nevertheless for the scope of their own purpose: Which moves are legal and what is the score.

Introduction of the time dimension does not alter this.

What alters this is some players' desire to shorten a game's move-sequence and some (partially other) players' desire to call moves beyond that unsportsmanlike. Usually it is still possible to describe reasonably clearly which moves that might be: Firstly purely territory-filling plays. Secondly pure approach moves for removals of finally dead stones when all endgame, endgame kos, dame and teire are already resolved. Such shortenings of move-sequences are described comparatively easily (except that quite some beginners can have difficulties) because one can model the game to be a linear process of phases from excitement via final removals to territory filling.

Real problems start when the endgame (area scoring: including dame and teire filling) is not over yet and arbitrary extra shortenings shall be prescribed while functionally very similar shortenings shall be allowed, subject to the referee's unpredictable preference or due to ambiguous tournament rules, like in the dispute motivating this thread.
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Re: there is something that smells in asian game.

Post by HermanHiddema »

RobertJasiek wrote:
HermanHiddema wrote:By extension, anything that is legal according to the law of the land you are in, is also morally correct.


What I suggest shall affect only the relation to the Go rules of play.


Where it almost becomes meaningless.

The rules of play do not, among other things, cover:

  • Timing rules
  • Capturing rules (stop the clock? keep prisoners visible?)
  • Stone playing rules (when is a move final? clock with same hand as move?)
  • Player behavior (do not consult other players, do not distract the opponent)
  • etc, etc, etc.

Yet this is exactly the area where sportsmanship comes into play. And this is covered in tournament rules, which are concerned with human behavior. and when you say, with regards to rules governing human behavior, that "what is legal is moral", then you are very very wrong.

And as soon as these rules come into play, their interaction with the rules of play becomes important, and we can specify that there exist legal moves that can be considered morally objectionable. The fact that there exist rules which specifically disallow trying to win on time by playing pointless moves shows that this is true.
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Re: there is something that smells in asian game.

Post by John Fairbairn »

Robert said:
Both I want to see solved by a more carefully codified relation between rules of play and sportsmanlike behaviour.


I think again this shows an unwillingness or inability to understand English-defined sportsmanship. One point about sportsmanship is that it is spontaneous. It can even involve flouting the rules. There is, when you get down to it, no meaningful relationship, which is the point.

I think some of the difficulty here is in setting up a dichotomy between rules and sportsmanship. The necessary division is a trichotomy at least.

First there are the codified rules. Robert is right to maintain that clear rules are a boon. Rules that can overcome cultural biases are especially valuable. But it's also important to realise that rules cannot cover every eventuality, that it is bad a idea even to try to cover every eventuality (ends up as information overload) and that rules can be overridden for reasons of e.g. humanity or sportsmanship.

Sportsmanship is at the other end of the spectrum. I am convinced that every native speaker understands the English meaning perfectly, and that all bar a couple of non-native speakers do as well, so I don't think we really need to set about trying to define it. Since it is spontaneous, it is to a degree undefinable anyway.

Maybe the most interesting category at the moment is the ignored one in-between. For want of a better name I will call it the "professional foul" category. This where an action is legal but the intent is to gain an advantage not intended by the spirit of the game. In soccer, a trip is, in one sense, illegal - against the rules - but it attracts a sanction also defined in the rules, so that it is possible for a player or manager to make a cost-benefit analysis to exploit this fact to gain an unfair advantage. We have had an example this week of Mourinho and Real Madrid players committing fouls deliberately so as to get sent off, and thus erase a pending yellow card before a high level cup match.

This middle category does not have to be rule bound, though. In baseball there is "The Code". If a batter gloats as he trots round the bases after hitting a home run, The Code requires that the pitcher throws at that batter's head the next time he's up, even if it means getting thrown out of the game. The "offence" of disrespect can also be carried over to be dealt with in later games where the other participants may not have even been involved the first time round.

The common elements in this middle category seem, to me, to be a willingness by players to manipulate the rules and/or to try to police the game with another set of hazy rules of their own making. Further, it seems to be the case that the players themselves often tolerate these excesses while fans and administrators usually condemn them.

Now if we look at the Asian Games example in that light, it seems plausibe that the pairgo incident was within the bounds of the professional foul. It may just have crept into that category, because the players thought, hey we are pros, this is what pros are supposed to do (especially if they felt they were obliged to win for Korean fans). It may, however, been slap bang in the middle of the category because The Code was being applied. There had been a recent ruckus at the Samsung involving a Chinese complaint against a Korean lady. Was this payback time? Were the players prepared to be disqualified so long as they upheld the honour of Korea and sent a message to Chinese players about the future?

It may, of course, just be that they were idiots who didn't read the rules - applies to most of us who go to tournaments, and how many people read Terms and Conditions before hitting the I Accept button? But it would be naive in the extreme to believe the professional foul category does not exist in go. Since manipulation or over-exploitation of rules for gain outside the spirit of the game is involved, there must be event rules to enforce punishments in such cases, which in turn implies, as Robert says, as much clarity as possible about the basic rules and their intent.

The best start in my view is a neglected one (except perhaps in the Japanese rules): a clear statement of what is meant by the spirit of the game, and separately a clear statement of what is meant by the ethos of a tournament. E.g. before every sudden-death event is there a clear statement that the idea of such time limits is to help the event run on schedule, not to provide abnormal ways to win? That seems, more or less, to have happened in the Asian Games, but they didn't come up with a good definition of abnormal.

If I understand Robert correctly, he wants to take the approach of eliminating abnormality by refining the ordinary rules as much as possible and then insisting that ANY application of those rules counts as normal. It's a worthy goal, but it's also pie in the sky. I think a more fruitful approach would be to address the "professional foul" category of go plays, using the sportsmanship category as a guide, so that we may tolerate some things to some degree, or give the benefit of the doubt, but we come down hard once the threshold of our our sportsmanship sensiblities has been crossed. It may be, of course, that people used to Anglo-Saxon case law find that easier than people used to European Napoleonic law, but either way we need to remember that the oriental countries are used to even more different law codes which influence their own stances on go rules.
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Re: there is something that smells in asian game.

Post by RobertJasiek »

HermanHiddema wrote:Where it almost becomes meaningless.


If specification of the relation between rules of play and sportsmanship were almost meaningless, then there would not be comparatively frequent disputes in important games for that that relation is not defined, badly defined or weakly organized. The success of the converse proves the importance and very significant impact of a well specified relation between rules of play and sportsmanship.

The rules of play do not, among other things, cover:


I am glad that my advertisement for separation of tournament rules from rules of play bears fruits:)

Yet this is exactly the area where sportsmanship comes into play


It is not exactly the area but it is part of the area, where specifications of sportsmanship do not restrict the rules of play themselves.

when you say, with regards to rules governing human behavior, that "what is legal is moral", then you are very very wrong.


Again - I say so only for the relation of where sportsmanship restricts the rules of play themselves. What you and others invent about general human behaviour, I have not referred to when speaking of only... (see above).
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Re: there is something that smells in asian game.

Post by daal »

RobertJasiek wrote:...my concern is to minimize numbers of disputes and to avoid players from being punished for making legal moves that are unrestricted or affected too ambiguously by tournament rules. Both I want to see solved by a more carefully codified relation between rules of play and sportsmanlike behaviour. Carefully codified because different players or different culture circles can have different understandings. Only (at least reasonably) careful codification does solve the mentioned problems.


I think you raise a valid issue by pointing to the possibility of cultural misunderstandings. ;-)

Are you are simply looking for a way to eliminate the possible accusation of unsportsmanlike conduct when a player continues play in a losing position in order to win on time? If so, rules cannot serve this purpose. You can not make a rule which will prohibit third-party opinion - which is what an accusation of unsportsmanlike conduct is.

If you wish to minimize the possibility of such accusations, you should not attempt to redefine the word "sportsmanship," as neither John nor Hermann nor the rest of the go playing world would ever agree to the definition that sportsmanship is alone playing by the rules - even very good rules. Instead, I'd encourage you to ask first what type of conduct is viewed by whom as un-sportsmanlike, and then think about how best to bring about respect for the general consensus.

When evaluating what John calls a "professional foul," we should bear in mind that the many viewpoints can be highly emotional and even irrational. While one can hope to widen the consensus regarding appropriate behavior and encourage adherence to the spirit of the game, and even to punish per rules un-sportsmanlike conduct, it is not possible per rules to mandate anything close to a unified opinion.
Patience, grasshopper.
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Re: there is something that smells in asian game.

Post by RobertJasiek »

John Fairbairn wrote:One point about sportsmanship is that it is spontaneous.


This aspect I want to see avoided entirely AFA the core relation to rules of play is concerned. Go is a game of better strategic decision - not a game of greater luck about which of one's moves will be allowed by referees.

it's also important to realise that rules cannot cover every eventuality, that it is bad a idea even to try to cover every eventuality


Everybody is aware that tournament rules and sportsmanship issues related to them cannot cover every eventuality indeed. (That is one of the major reasons why I have advertised for a separation between rules of play and tournament rules.)

manipulation or over-exploitation of rules for gain outside the spirit of the game is involved


Caused by a bad rules combination.

E.g. before every sudden-death event is there a clear statement that the idea of such time limits is


Good sudden death tournament rules specify the intended nature. E.g., (simplifying a bit) the German 10 min lightning championship rules specify that, until only dame are left, every legal move is considered sportsmanlike. (I am not suggesting that that would be the only possible solution but that statements of such clarity are very helpful to understand a tournament's nature.)

If I understand Robert correctly, he wants to take the approach of eliminating abnormality by refining the ordinary rules as much as possible and then insisting that ANY application of those rules counts as normal. It's a worthy goal, but it's also pie in the sky.


Since I want to do it essentially only for the core relation to the rules of play, specifying, e.g., that final removals after dame filling and pure territory filling shall not be done on time suffices. In particular, any endgame, however strange, should be considered normal game playing. By avoiding all special rules for special shapes like double ko deaths, the, as you call it, pie reaches the sky easily.

the oriental countries are used to even more different law codes which influence their own stances on go rules.


Which law codes other than principle law versus case-by-case law would you mean?
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Re: there is something that smells in asian game.

Post by RobertJasiek »

hanekomu wrote:Did you just tell me that I don't know my own native language?


Sure. E.g., knowing between, say 50,000 and 300,000 German words makes me an illiterate compared to the 5,000,000 or whatever words that exist. Presumably your German vocabulary is as partial, is it not?:)
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Re: there is something that smells in asian game.

Post by RobertJasiek »

daal wrote:Are you are simply looking for a way to eliminate the possible accusation of unsportsmanlike conduct when a player continues play in a losing position in order to win on time?


No.
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Re: there is something that smells in asian game.

Post by John Fairbairn »

Robert said:
Good sudden death tournament rules specify the intended nature. E.g., (simplifying a bit) the German 10 min lightning championship rules specify that, until only dame are left, every legal move is considered sportsmanlike.


That sounds like a good start to me, but I still have to point out that the English is flawed. Where you have "sportsmanlike" we would probably say "fair play", or just "acceptable".

Which law codes other than principle law versus case-by-case law would you mean?


Well, taking just Japan, although western-type laws have taken root they still have tender shoots and the old methods of enforcing social rules have their place. Essentially this is appeal to a higher, respected authority, who will, however, almost always first instruct the parties to go away and find a compromise. Furthermore, the aim of the compromise is often not to settle the dispute per se but to find a face-saving solution for the weaker party. If all else fails, there is still the trip to the local yakuza office where you can buy vengeance. That's not so common now, I hasten to add, but it's still there.

This well-ingrained compromise approach will be very familiar to you from go disputes, and although it possibly makes you and me choke on our Haferflocken, it's not so easy to dismiss it (except maybe the yakuza part) as it has worked passably for several centuries.
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Re: there is something that smells in asian game.

Post by RobertJasiek »

Interesting, thanks! One thing I don't get yet: How do compromise-seeking parties find out which of them is the weaker part?
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Re: there is something that smells in asian game.

Post by John Fairbairn »

How do compromise-seeking parties find out which of them is the weaker part?


Not by logic. Most often it is, in effect, by polling opinions of people known to both sides, which also makes it the cheapest solution. Since face is at the root of things, it's important not to go against the majority. But, at the same time, the majority knows that the "loser" has to be kept in the fold. Clearly this system is only really appropriate when everybody knows each other, but you could argue that that obtains well enough in the go world.
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Re: there is something that smells in asian game.

Post by Bantari »

RobertJasiek wrote:My argument is: Whenever rules of play let something be legal and tournament rules do not restrict it either, it is morally correct and good sportsmanship to apply the rules of play. This is the very purpose of rules of play: to define which and when moves are legal and what the score is.


The rules 'allow' many different types of behavior, and it is up to the players to choose what he does at such moments. In our example, the rules also allowed the Koran players a different way of action - resign when they were behind and not to play on time. Both behaviors are within the rules, but only one most of us would judge as 'good sportsmanship'. As I said - the idea good sportsmanship inherently implies different possible choices allowed by the rules.

This is where rules and morality differ - both moral and immoral behaviors can be within the rules.

No mater what kind of rules you devise, there will always be choices for the players to behave 'nicely' or to behave 'rudely'. And the community will try to 'reward' the 'nice' players by calling their behavior 'good sportsmanship'. The 'rude' players will get 'punished' by calling their behavior 'bad sportsmanship'. Both the 'nice' and the 'rude' players will stay within the rules, but there still must be a distinction - this is how the society regulates itself in all the small matters which simply cannot be covered by the law or the rules.

There is no other way unless we all become mindless drones who do nothing but blindly follow some overgrown set of rules governing every single action we take, no matter how minor.
Think about that.
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Re: there is something that smells in asian game.

Post by Bantari »

RobertJasiek wrote:
hanekomu wrote:Did you just tell me that I don't know my own native language?


Sure. E.g., knowing between, say 50,000 and 300,000 German words makes me an illiterate compared to the 5,000,000 or whatever words that exist. Presumably your German vocabulary is as partial, is it not?:)


There is a huge difference between discussing words which are unknown to somebody and words which are well known.
In other words, it makes no difference how many words you know or don't know compared to the whole dictionary. What is important is the common usage of a word you both know.

Not being a native German speaker, I did not wand to take part in this particular branch of the discussion, but instinctively I also disagreed with your interpretation based on all the years I lived in Germany. Which does not make you wrong, since there might well be that there are areas or groups where any particular word is used slightly different than in other areas - its a very common effect, in each country. But to be proper, you should consult some respectable German dictionary and find out what this word commonly/properly means regardless of variations defined by locality.
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Re: there is something that smells in asian game.

Post by RobertJasiek »

Bantari wrote:Think about that.


Good old Bantari advice;) - Moral judgement by different percentages calling something "good" or "bad" is one thing - referee game decision issuing win or loss is another thing.

What is important is the common usage of a word you both know.


To me it is somewhat surprising that some German go players do not know the, what by experience I perceive as, majority meaning of Sportlichkeit.

Which does not make you wrong, since there might well be that there are areas or groups where any particular word is used slightly different than in other areas - its a very common effect, in each country.


Area, education, social environments, used media all can have a great impact here.

you should consult some respectable German dictionary and find out what this word commonly/properly


German dictionaries tend to be very selective. 1) They cover mostly standard / the most common words to fit a given number of pages. 2) The education of the writers and editors of such dictionaries is somewhat prejudiced by their own background. 3) Dictionaries tend to be delayed WRT to new language developments.

In summary, in most cases I trust my own knowledge of German vocabulary more than German dictionaries.
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Re: there is something that smells in asian game.

Post by Bantari »

RobertJasiek wrote:
Bantari wrote:Think about that.


Good old Bantari advice;) - Moral judgement by different percentages calling something "good" or "bad" is one thing - referee game decision issuing win or loss is another thing.


Well, as i said, the referee acted within the rules, so I absolutely don't see your objection here.
Isn't your point that everything which the rules explicitly allow is proper, correct, and gives no reason to complaint?

I mean - you can make a case for changing the rules, but you certainly should not be making an argument against somebody acting within the rules.
This is not like the Robert we all know and love!
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