Teamovitch #1

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:20 am

Joaz Banbeck wrote:The post that you quote was unfinished. I was trying to correct a typo and accidentally posted it.

Ah, ok, that makes sense, although it makes me ask an even bigger question:

I see you changed you comment to fifth line territory - where is that exactly?

For one thing, White can jump out here, and Black has no option other than to be sealed in. :b21:

is hardly a healthy stone, and the corner can now by undermined very easily, let alone White's thick outside wall. What's your counter-strategy leading to 5th line territory?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm18 $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 9 6 3 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 W . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . 4 . 1 . B . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
topazg wrote:Also, I think that M3 is an overplay needs to be proved over the board still, don't you?

I'm waiting for suggestions to crush it.

Haha, that's just wishful thinking on your part

MrGreen is the name of that smiley - Reservoir Dogs comes to mind all of a sudden, now maybe I should be a bit more scared

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:40 am

I was thinking of this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 7 1 2 . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 6 X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . X 8 O . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...or this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 9 3 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 8 1 2 . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 0 5 4 6 X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . X 7 O . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And, yes, I too would like to hear opinions by stronger players...but I won't tip them for it.

emeraldemon · Post by **emeraldemon** » Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:56 am

For Joaz:

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:50 am

emeraldemon wrote:For Joaz:
In your first response to M3, you wrote "Hmmm... Something has gone wrong somewhere. Black team or white team, I cannot say. I thought that this was an overplay by white. Either Topazg has overlooked something or I have." Have you become more confident since then that it was Topazg who overlooked something, and not you? Or is it still too early to tell?

Just one move later it is definitely too early to tell. ( Even on my bad days I can read an extra move deeper if I need to. )
The impression that it is an overplay is not a purely tactical judgement. It is based more on a overall assement of the board. All of our other groups are safe: a strong shimari in the lower left, a 3-3 invasion in the upper left that can be pushed around but not seriously hurt, and a 3-stone shimari in the upper right that may be invadable but still has lots of room to slide along the upper side if the invasion works. On the other hand, the white stones on the left side are thin, and the stones on the right have to constantly worry that any play on the right side may unleash the R8 stone.
In a situation like that, in which one side has notably safer groups, it seems very risky to start a fight. Now maybe they can live in sente on the lower side, jump to the upper left to connect their thin stones with forcing moves while retaining sente, and then come back to smother our R8 stone with Q9. If Topazg has a scheme for doing that, then M3 is not an overplay.
But what is likely to happen is that this generates a big running fight, and sooner or later we will get strong somewhere in the center ( as either the lower right group or the lower left moves out while attacking ), and then we will play C12 or reactivate R8. We might have one weak group as we come running out of the lower right without stopping to make eyes, but they will be saddled with multiple weak groups. That should favor us.

The ideal position looks something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm18 This, BTW, does not indicate exact moves, it just illustrates the general flow of the game $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . O . O . X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . X . , . . . X . , X . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In summary, I favor the opinion that white has overplayed.

Post by **Jordus** » Wed Dec 01, 2010 3:02 pm

BIC:

Some Quick Ideas:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . 1 5 . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . 7 2 3 O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 8 4 6 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . 6 1 4 . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . 8 2 3 O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 7 2 . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . . 4 3 5 X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . 1 6 O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Jedo · Post by **Jedo** » Wed Dec 01, 2010 3:35 pm

topazg wrote:
MrGreen is the name of that smiley - Reservoir Dogs comes to mind all of a sudden, now maybe I should be a bit more scared

There was no Mr. Green in RD, but if only there were a smiley named Mr Pink...

Jedo · Post by **Jedo** » Thu Dec 02, 2010 9:22 am

Black suggestion

Ok, time to attack.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 Move 20 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . 2 . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think this is how to do it. What I'm trying to encourage is a series of jumping out, which will bring the aji of our stone to life. If we just keep coming out, we can hane before too long:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 Move 20 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 0 8 9 . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 a . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , b . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . 2 . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Pushing at a and living at b are now miai. White can play it differently and kosumi instead of pushing forward, but this puts even less pressure on us. With respect to Jordus' 4th line pincer, I think's it's the wrong way since it doesn't put quite enough pressure on white by giving him eyespace.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:19 am

Just to make sure that everyone is on the same page after the interesting diversions, the board looks like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 Move 20 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...and it is black's move.

To observers and teammates:

For observers only:

@Topazg: "Resevoir Dogs'? Wasn't that a film about how a bunch of white guys made some bad decisions, argued with each other, and ended up dead? :lol:

KGS 4 kyu · Post by **fwiffo** » Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:45 am

Black suggestion:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 Move 21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . c a . O 2 . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Since Jedo again took what I believe is the strongest move, I'll put up my second choice from the previous discussion. This fixes our open-skirt issue and if white plays the (virtually forced) response of standing up, they become heavy.

My third choice would be a slighly wider pincer, given that we're not all that strong, but it would feel like a timid, half-measure and I don't have any specific tactical reasons to pick it over the move Jedo picked.

I don't believe there was a Mr. Green in Reservoir dogs. Just Brown, Blue, Blond, Pink, Orange and White.

Post by **Jordus** » Thu Dec 02, 2010 3:35 pm

Black Suggestion:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . 1 5 . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . 7 2 3 O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 8 4 6 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Yep.. I think I will go with K4 as my formal suggestion.... I don't normally play high moves like this because I am afraid of them cutting under, however I think in this case that cutting under might be a little over zealous and come to our advantage..., and jedo suggested k3, which would be my other choice... I also thought about j3 but I think that it is too passive...

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Thu Dec 02, 2010 3:36 pm

Joaz wrote:@Topazg: "Resevoir Dogs'? Wasn't that a film about how a bunch of white guys made some bad decisions, argued with each other, and ended up dead?

Thanks for that

(very nice!)

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:54 pm

Sorry folks, work has gotten real busy lately. I'll try to post tomorrow.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:46 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Move 21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . 1 . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'll post comments on the choice of moves later.

For observers only:

Redundant · Post by **Redundant** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:20 am

WIC:

I tend to just trust my gut when I play go. Too much thinking is really good for convincing yourself to play ridiculous stuff. My gut says jump. Anyone see problems with this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Move 21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . 1 . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

tj86430 · Post by **tj86430** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:29 am

WIC:

Redundant wrote:I tend to just trust my gut when I play go. Too much thinking is really good for convincing yourself to play ridiculous stuff. My gut says jump. Anyone see problems with this?

I'm the same, but sometimes I notice that a little more reading might have helped...

Anyhow, that would have been my choice too, the one option I see is this (which I suggest since jumping is no longer available):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Move 21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , 2 . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . 1 . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't really see us affording tenuki, but perhaps Chew will find a reasonable third choice...

Life In 19x19

Teamovitch #1

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