Teamovitch #1

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topazg
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by topazg »

To teammates other than chew until he's picked a move too:

Great, both of those are what I wanted, so now I can compare them both. Chew will probably suggest a tenuki as the local good moves are already picked, so I'll set to work on the next move. I think Black's made their first proper mistake here, as this feels entirely the wrong direction, encouraging us to build up an attack on their soon-to-be-heavy corner group. Nice to have something to really attack! Don't forget sente to return to the top left is really really huge too...


To observers:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Move 21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . 3 2 . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . 1 . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is something I'm looking at, but Black probably won't block:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Move 21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . 4 2 . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . 5 1 . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Too thin? Will really need to think about this before playing.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Move 21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 3 O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . 1 . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is simple and effective - if I can't read how effective the kosumi and jump is, this looks like a safe and simple idea. Black doesn't want to be running like this, it's just a dame-chain. We finally have a chance to make Black squirm a bit, but we do still really want to return to the top left.
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Chew Terr
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Chew Terr »

Oh, WIC stands for white internal chat!
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Move 21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . 2 . . . . . . a . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . 1 . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Something (anything) in this corner seems huge, and potentially larger than anything on bottom. If we play up here, I feel like B may have to respond. If B captures our last move solidly, we can play something like 'a' to destabilize the top right (I think). Playing R17 is much benefitted by having a threat to connect out both sides, so M17 looks severe. And if black stopped to defend after M17, we can fall back, claiming the top in a huge way.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . 2 . . . 6 . . 4 5 X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , 3 . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . 1 . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

No idea where 5 would be, but it's the general idea I'm getting at.
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Perhaps we should spell it out for the new observers.
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Joaz Banbeck wrote:...

I'll post comments on the choice of moves later...


For observers and teammates:
[Grumble] I'm not happy with the choices. I have two suggestions of pushing from the left, whereupon white runs out; and one choice of attacking from the right, whereupon white runs out.

The general pattern look the same. Like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 . 3 . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . 5 . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . 1 . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...or like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Move 21
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 . 3 . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . 1 . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...or like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Move 21
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 3 . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . 2 . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . 4 . . . O 1 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The same thing happens: black gets out, but with very little influence, as white is to both the left and right. White's attacked group lives relatively easily. On the other side, white can play Q9, securing 20+points. We are then faced with the fact that, with both neighboring enemy groups safe, our group has no purpose.

It won't make life easily in the middle, so the best it can do is to scramble for life in the corner like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O 2 . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , 1 3 . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...which is gote and compels white to secure the side. :(

The proper direction, IMHO, was to push white down. We are ahead in secured territory. We can afford to give white 10-15 points on the lower side. In return, we would get a group that means something. I wanted the shoulder hit, like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Move 21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , C . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . 5 3 1 6 . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . 4 2 O . 9 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


At this point, we would still be ahead in territory. We probably finish the bottom with sente, and then we go attacking with C12 ( Maybe C7 or D8 or E16 or P11 first ). Then our group would have some meaning.

[/grumble]

Well, it is time to make lemonade. As our group does have some purpose as long as one of the local enemy groups is insecure, the best we can do is make the most aggressive move which will prevent the white lower middle group from getting life as long as possible. So I choose M3.


PS: All diagrams in this post are intended to show general flow. They are not advocates of a particular sequence.
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topazg
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by topazg »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm22 Move 22
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


To team and observers:

Chew's area of the board is huge, and we really want sente to get back there (I mean, really really want!), but the local area is just too urgent right now. The reason I've gone for this move is, in both cases, I think Black will change directions and lean over, as forcing White to keep running out seems really bad for Black:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm22 Move 22
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 . 1 . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now black has sealed himself in the corner and created all sorts of problems. Instead, I expect something like the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm22 Move 22
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 7 . 3 2 . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . . . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Which should give us scope to attack the bottom edge and the lower right corner, and mostly secures the death of Black's stone on the right.

I rejected the kosumi because I think it prioritises the wrong side:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm22 Move 22
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 2 . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . 3 1 . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . 4 X . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White's real target for actual kill-profit is the stone at the bottom, and we don't want to make it any stronger. I considered this move in seriousness, so I think it's a really good local suggestion, but getting the move direction right so the sequence flows in our favour is a difficult thing to judge.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

To opponents:
You can start planning your response to N6. I'm sure that it will be suggested, and as soon as it is, I will choose it. No other move will do.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Uh...any suggestions? Ohh...I suppose you guys are busy with finals.
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Jordus
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Jordus »

I have been a bit busy... I'll post a suggestion by tomorrow morning...
I'm thinking...
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topazg
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by topazg »

To teammates:

In case you didn't see Joaz' post, he wants us thinking about the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23 Move 23
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So, any followups in mind?
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tj86430
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by tj86430 »

To teammates:

topazg wrote:
In case you didn't see Joaz' post, he wants us thinking about the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23 Move 23
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So, any followups in mind?


I saw that, but I also saw your thoughts on how to handle it :D
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topazg
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by topazg »

tj86430 wrote:
I saw that, but I also saw your thoughts on how to handle it :D


Hehe, erm, yeah, true :D

On that note, some more comments about our last move to teammates and observers:

Actually, the kosumi could be interesting, and I was tempted with the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm22 Move 22
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . 9 0 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 7 8 . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . 3 1 . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . 4 X . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But I think it's just too thin...


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm32 Move 32
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 7 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . 6 O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 9 O X 1 O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 0 8 O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 3 2 X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . O O . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . X X . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Hence instead choosing a one point jump that I thought was not really good enough or the right direction.
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by fwiffo »

Joaz Banbeck wrote:Uh...any suggestions? Ohh...I suppose you guys are busy with finals.

Crap, it's our move? OK, here's my suggestion.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm22 Suggestion for move 23
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't completely understand Joaz's objection to our last move. Pincering the stone on the side seems obvious and straightforward to me; leaning on it seems counterintuitive and runs counter to basic principles. But he's stronger than me, so I have to assume his judgment is better than my own.

The basic principle I'm thinking about is "don't touch weak stones lest you make them strong". Obviously, there are usually exceptions to most rules of thumb, and there are exceptions. Sometimes you touch them because of a specific tactical sequence, or because you can kill them outright. But there are other exceptions, and I don't have a good understanding of them.

But if we're going to make our last move mean anything at all, we have to keep the white group on the bottom separated from the right side, and keep access to the outside. This is the only move I see that does that securely.
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Jedo »

Yeah, I'm in the middle of finals week, but here's my suggestion. PS, done on tuesday!
I second Fwiffo's suggestion. I can't think of anything else that makes sense. Sorry Joaz!
"There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level." -- Bruce Lee
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Jordus »

Suggestion:
Slept in... Sorry for the late suggestion....
I like Fwiffo's idea... but here is something different so we have some more choices...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm22 Suggestion for move 23
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . 1 . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O 2 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I'm thinking...
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm22 move 23
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It is unanimous.
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