Punishing a joseki error -- 4-4 low approach 1-space pincer

jdl · Post by **jdl** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:29 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cW 19x19 board $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . 1 . X . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I have two questions.

1. B1 is a mistake, right? It certainly looks like one to me.

2. What should white be considering here as far as punishing this mistake?

HermanHiddema · Post by **HermanHiddema** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:52 pm

1) Yes. Black cannot split, so this wedge will just make white stronger, without appreciable gain for black. Normally, I'd expect the one point jump to D6 from black.

2) Keep black split, and focus on the outside, as black can build a moyo on the left if you focus on taking territory. I'd expect the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc 19x19 board $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . h . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . f . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . g . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 d . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . e . 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X 1 B 2 X . a . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . 4 5 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Next, I'd look at attacking black on the lower side, with a move like a.

Other moves to keep in mind are the slide at b for stability and the capping play at c to attack.

White can lean on the left side, with something like the sequence d-e-f-g-h, to set up a large scale attack, but at the cost of stabilizing black's corner and side, so that is best kept in reserve, IMO.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:39 am

It seems that :b2:

is forced. There is an option for :b4:

. It turns out no better for black:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 X 1 B 2 X . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . 5 4 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...and

is a ladder.

BTW, note that Herman and I both placed :w1:

to the left ( it is closer to the more valuable corner ) and :w3:

high at E5 rather than low at E3 ( it is easier to take E5 directly and try to control E3 because it can be chased to the side )

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:01 am

jdl wrote:2. What should white be considering here as far as punishing this mistake?

I think as long as your two white stones end up connected and/or you catch a black stone in a ladder you've punished this.

gowan · Post by **gowan** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:11 am

I don't like using the word "punished" because it implies the opponent's position collapses. That's almost the case here but really it is better to think "How can I take advantage of this mistake"

HermanHiddema · Post by **HermanHiddema** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:21 am

Joaz Banbeck wrote:BTW, note that Herman and I both placed to the left ( it is closer to the more valuable corner ) and high at E5 rather than low at E3 ( it is easier to take E5 directly and try to control E3 because it can be chased to the side )

I think that, considering basic principles, this is the primary lesson to take away from this.

I would've, BTW, stretched Joaz's :w7:

to the left (3-3) instead of downwards, to take sente, but that is also because I have a very fast and thin style, and like to take sente a lot

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:50 am

gowan wrote:I don't like using the word "punished" because it implies the opponent's position collapses. That's almost the case here but really it is better to think "How can I take advantage of this mistake"

Oh, interesting-- to me, "punished" just means you've gained an appropriate advantage from your opponent's mistake...

jdl · Post by **jdl** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:00 am

daniel_the_smith wrote:
gowan wrote:I don't like using the word "punished" because it implies the opponent's position collapses. That's almost the case here but really it is better to think "How can I take advantage of this mistake"

Oh, interesting-- to me, "punished" just means you've gained an appropriate advantage from your opponent's mistake...

That's how I meant it. "Gain a better result than what you'd get from the joseki." I can see how it can be misinterpreted though.

Thank you to everyone for your answers.

judicata · Post by **judicata** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:19 am

daniel_the_smith wrote:
gowan wrote:I don't like using the word "punished" because it implies the opponent's position collapses. That's almost the case here but really it is better to think "How can I take advantage of this mistake"

Oh, interesting-- to me, "punished" just means you've gained an appropriate advantage from your opponent's mistake...

Me too, but I think daniel's point is valid. Sometimes, if someone thinks an opponents move is crazy or incorrect, they think that the opponent's position must therefore collapse. I'd still use the word "punish," but try to make sure it is understood as intended.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:24 am

HermanHiddema wrote:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:BTW, note that Herman and I both placed to the left ( it is closer to the more valuable corner ) and high at E5 rather than low at E3 ( it is easier to take E5 directly and try to control E3 because it can be chased to the side )

I think that, considering basic principles, this is the primary lesson to take away from this.

I would've, BTW, stretched Joaz's to the left (3-3) instead of downwards, to take sente, but that is also because I have a very fast and thin style, and like to take sente a lot

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X 1 B 2 X . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . 7 5 4 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a . . 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here is another thought. However, Black still has aji in the corner, like a play at a.

b is more solid than :w9:

, but not as good as Joaz's line. With the bad aji, I do not think that I would tenuki, and that makes Joaz's line better, IMO.

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:51 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cW i am thinking it is one of many joseki $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc it is similar to joseki but i think white is little better than in joseki above. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X 1 B 2 X . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . 4 5 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc black sucks $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 5 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X 1 B 2 X . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . 4 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc i think it is playable for both but i like white better. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 6 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X 1 B 2 X . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . 7 5 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc sililar to second diag. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 0 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 5 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X 1 B 2 X . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . 6 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc white better than black in my opinion. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X 2 B 1 X 7 , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc about even but i like black move 10. i think white can do better than this diag. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 0 . . O 4 5 9 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X 2 B 1 X 7 , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:01 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Moves 13 to 22 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 4 5 O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 X O X X X . , 0 . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . 1 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If

-

,

-

leans on the Black corner in preparation for the pincer at :w10:

. I like White.

Life In 19x19

Punishing a joseki error -- 4-4 low approach 1-space pincer

Punishing a joseki error -- 4-4 low approach 1-space pincer

Re: Punishing a joseki error -- 4-4 low approach 1-space pin

Re: Punishing a joseki error -- 4-4 low approach 1-space pin

Re: Punishing a joseki error -- 4-4 low approach 1-space pin

Re: Punishing a joseki error -- 4-4 low approach 1-space pin

Re: Punishing a joseki error -- 4-4 low approach 1-space pin

Re: Punishing a joseki error -- 4-4 low approach 1-space pin

Re: Punishing a joseki error -- 4-4 low approach 1-space pin

Re: Punishing a joseki error -- 4-4 low approach 1-space pin

Re: Punishing a joseki error -- 4-4 low approach 1-space pin

Re: Punishing a joseki error -- 4-4 low approach 1-space pin

Re: Punishing a joseki error -- 4-4 low approach 1-space pin