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 Post subject: High Dan Ranks on WBaduk
Post #1 Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 10:10 pm 
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So, recently I have been watching a lot of online go at night to try to get new ideas for openings, higher level moves, etc. I have been watching mainly on WBaduk, because it's frustrating to go on KGS at night and have the top board be a 4d vs 3d game :-? . My question is, exactly how strong are the 7d and 8d players there? Basically I think the top players can be broken down as follows:

WBaduk 7d - 32000 - 33000 RP
WBaduk 8d - 33000 - 34000 RP
WBaduk 8d - 34000+ RP

I know for a fact that there are AGA 8d players at the 7d level on the server, but I also suspect AGA 6d or even 5d players might be able to get there. I am inclined to believe that most WBaduk 8d players are professionals, and that almost all players above 34000 are at the professional level. However, this implies a huge gap between 7d and 8d on the server, which seems strange.

I think it's really helpful to know these comparisons, because when I see top players on WBaduk playing blitz, they are oftentimes just recreating the latest opening theories for their first several moves. Being in the U.S., it's really cool to see these openings played almost as soon as they are being analyzed and proven in China, Korea, and Japan.

Any thoughts on the strengths of these players? It would be good to get a better idea for the 7d and low 8d ranges.

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 Post subject: Re: High Dan Ranks on WBaduk
Post #2 Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 10:28 pm 
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Just a reminder, this is strictly based on my experience with the server, observations, and knowing people who play on the server; nothing more. WBaduk 7d is between KGS 3d - 5d tops, so ironically it's not much different from the top board you were watching on KGS. WBaduk 8d is a strange area because it's at the peak. There are some exceptionally strong players (KGS 7d+, e.g: wintogo is 8d there and 8d on KGS) but I also know KGS 5d - 6d players who have also hit 8d. The key factor is how long they stay there. The strong players can stay at the top for long periods of time, whereas the ones who can barely make it are usually demoted back down fairly quickly - the same phenomenon can be seen on Tygem with 9d. There are some 9ds who stay 9d for hundreds of games (most likely higher class professionals) and some who keep demoting and promoting between 8d and 9d (e.g: Artem, Ukranian youth who is KGS 7d, bounces between 8d and 9d on Tygem). There are a lot of factors though, including which server the account predominantly plays on.

Also - http://senseis.xmp.net/?RankWorldwideCo ... Collection

tl;dr: WBaduk 7d is KGS 3d - 5d; WBaduk 8d is murky, biggest factor is how long an account can stay at that level.

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 Post subject: Re: High Dan Ranks on WBaduk
Post #3 Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 11:31 pm 
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Thanks for the thoughts. I guess the rating system on WBaduk lends itself to bigger swings in rank than on KGS for example. Just to clarify, I only watch the 8d games and I prefer 34000+ whenever possible :D. Although it is a little weird to think about 3d KGS players hitting 7d on there...

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 Post subject: Re: High Dan Ranks on WBaduk
Post #4 Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 3:49 am 
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I know some german 4-dan players who are bouncing between 6 and 7 dan on Wbaduk.
german 4-dan = kgs 4-dan.


I think it is really difficult for a kgs 3d to hit 7d on Wbaduk and hold it. When you have some kind of luck-winnig-streak for 7 or 8 games you'll ascend a rank for sure, but holding it seems rather difficult (as sol already mentioned).

After watching some games I think thre is a really big gap between stable 8dans and 7dans, I 've seen a game where a 8dan have 3 handicapstones and still won the game against a 7dan.

Quote:
I think it's really helpful to know these comparisons, because when I see top players on WBaduk playing blitz, they are oftentimes just recreating the latest opening theories for their first several moves. Being in the U.S., it's really cool to see these openings played almost as soon as they are being analyzed and proven in China, Korea, and Japan.


Based on my experience it is often the other way around. I saw many highdan WBaduk players playing macro-chinese opening 1-2 years ago while the pros were still playing the "normal" chinese. After several month now you can notice the macro-chinese more often in professional games.
Maybe these onlinegames where no important titel or qualification is at stake the players can risk more and try more new not proofed things.

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 Post subject: Re: High Dan Ranks on WBaduk
Post #5 Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 5:36 am 
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Although I am still officially an AGA 5 dan it is an old ranking and I don't play seriously enough any more to really claim much more than 4 dan I don't think. Based on that I can easily hold 3d on KGS, 5d on WBaduk and 3d on DGS. I also find that it is easier to have longer winning streaks on WBaduk.

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 Post subject: Re: High Dan Ranks on WBaduk
Post #6 Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 4:08 am 
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I like the saying, "The top rank is somewhere between High55 and Lee Changho."

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 Post subject: Re: High Dan Ranks on WBaduk
Post #7 Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 2:08 am 
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I agree with basically all the opinions above.

When I got to 7D on there, I was like wtf is this... I should not be 7d..ANYWHERE! Since then, I got as high as 7.4 (32400?), and got 5d KGS, although I'm not on the stronger half of KGS 5D yet.

Seems like if I really concentrate, even I can get 8D. Why?

Once you are 7D, you press automatch and you get an opponent who is also 7D. Whether they're 32001 or 32999 is pretty random. If you can get to around 7.4 or 7.5 playing against such randoms, it will be exactly the same when you are 7.6, or 7.99, so you just have to keep winning. I fell to the bottom of 7D again because I'm playing 00:00, 00:10 x 1, and experimenting with my own ideas about opening, and about how to play the game as a whole. It's a good place to experiment because you can get games fast, but unfortunately, pretty much all the 7D I played are too weak to get a good assessment of the ideas (not to say that I don't lose half the time).

Are Tygem ranks that soft??

(Can I get onto Tygem...?)

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 Post subject: Re: High Dan Ranks on WBaduk
Post #8 Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 2:37 am 
Gosei
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Alakazam wrote:
Are Tygem ranks that soft??

(Can I get onto Tygem...?)

From what I've experienced, it is second softest after WBaduk. Actually if Tygem just kept their rating system but compressed the ranks to get rid of the 9d rank, then that would be a pretty close representation to WBaduk. From my observation it's about 2 stones weaker than KGS in the dan levels, and like the 8d level on Wbaduk the 9d level on Tygem has a very wide strength spectrum. Artem, supertjc, and Hutoshi4 are examples of KGS players who have reached 9d though they don't stay there very long and stay in 8d more often than 9d. Even pros (e.g: Suh Ning-uk 9p) and super amas (e.g: Victor Chow 7d/KGS 9d) dip into 8d every so often.

And yes, there are several ways you can get onto Tygem.

  • By registering a Chinese account to use the TOM (Chinese Tygem) client (http://senseis.xmp.net/?TomGoServer). Most foreigners try this way.
  • By trying this walkthrough written by Kirby to register a Japanese account and use the Toyo Igo (Japanese Tygem) client: viewtopic.php?f=43&t=264
  • By finding a Korean friend who will let you use his/her national ID to register a Korean account and use the Korean Tygem client.

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 Post subject: Re: High Dan Ranks on WBaduk
Post #9 Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 12:45 am 
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Alakazam wrote:
I agree with basically all the opinions above.
Seems like if I really concentrate, even I can get 8D. Why?

Once you are 7D, you press automatch and you get an opponent who is also 7D. Whether they're 32001 or 32999 is pretty random. If you can get to around 7.4 or 7.5 playing against such randoms, it will be exactly the same when you are 7.6, or 7.99, so you just have to keep winning.


This argument is flawed. Even if you have the same win ratio against other 7 dans regardless of your exact rating, the effect of that win ratio is different according to your own rating since the stronger you get you gain less points for wins and lose more points for losses. E.g. with a 50% win ratio you should gain points as long as you are below 32500 and lose points as soon you climb above it. Conclusion: A proposition like "even I can get 8D" needs validation by actually reaching it.

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