This one of the most epic games I've played without a clear blunder that I can remember. Lots of framework / territory issues, group swapping, trades, close escapes, with lots and lots of areas that I suspect could have been sharper or better directioned.
I've done my best to self review this one, but I'd love comments from anyone that has something to offer about the game (especially magicwand and Bill, who have often made great comments on games here, but please don't feel obliged either!)
OGS Game between L19ers topazg and ethanb
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topazg
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HermanHiddema
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Re: OGS Game between L19ers topazg and ethanb
Some comments:
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topazg
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Re: OGS Game between L19ers topazg and ethanb
Many thanks Herman, particularly on P6, I did wonder about that. It was one of those things that I though if I played too early I didn't have enough to chase the group for profit properly. I did wonder about playing it immediately, and decided not to until I had some more on the outside. In hindsight, I agree that it was the biggest thing on the board.
Some useful thoughts and ideas on the lower right too. I know the S5/S6 exchange was bad, but S11 for shape hadn't occurred to me. I'll have a closer look at that one.
Some useful thoughts and ideas on the lower right too. I know the S5/S6 exchange was bad, but S11 for shape hadn't occurred to me. I'll have a closer look at that one.
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Shaddy
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Re: OGS Game between L19ers topazg and ethanb
Some of my ideas:
edit: on reading herman's post, perhaps I should have made every comment after black failed to connect at p6 "CONNECT AT P6"
edit: on reading herman's post, perhaps I should have made every comment after black failed to connect at p6 "CONNECT AT P6"
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: OGS Game between L19ers topazg and ethanb
How about move 75 at E15?
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topazg
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Re: OGS Game between L19ers topazg and ethanb
Yes, both you and Herman feel this way, and perhaps it is better. I chose the move I did because it Forced White to kill those stones, gave my E15 as a peep to creep in later anyway (which I used), and got me some points on the edge.Joaz Banbeck wrote:How about move 75 at E15?
I was concerned if I played E15 that White would take the point I played instead, settle on the edge, increase the aji of his cutting stones in the middle, and I would have gained nothing other than save two stones of little value. I felt most of their value as cutting stones had already been "used up", and that White would settle on both sides.
I guess I ought to read a bit more closely into the position
Thanks everyone for their comments.
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sholvar
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Re: OGS Game between L19ers topazg and ethanb
I think your problem here is more your approach then your play. You don't take your own goals serious enough. You say, you want to make a moyo, but when white comes and says "well let's cut out a little of your moyo" (with R6, O3) you just respond with "okay, I can be happy without it..."
Then you exchange your Corner for Influence in the upper right. That is nice, but if you then let him walk out on the right side how is your framework earning the name moyo?
An then, but this might be a mistake (I'd like to remind you at this point that I'm around 4k KGS), I think you should not forget that you can extend your moyo on the top side BEFORE you invade. If you invade first your moyo lost it's last side, meaning the top. And if you don't want to extend on the top side, then don't play a high move on L16.
You planned to make a moyo extending from the right side. Then you let him leak in from the top right corner and the bottom right corner (from the bottom right even 2 times- move 80). Plan failed. Game over. That's the downside to moyo play. If your moyo fails, you fail. There will not be a chance to recover from that (if your opponent doesn't usually makes huuuuuge mistakes).
Anyway, it's an interesting opening. I hope you post more games about that.
Then you exchange your Corner for Influence in the upper right. That is nice, but if you then let him walk out on the right side how is your framework earning the name moyo?
An then, but this might be a mistake (I'd like to remind you at this point that I'm around 4k KGS), I think you should not forget that you can extend your moyo on the top side BEFORE you invade. If you invade first your moyo lost it's last side, meaning the top. And if you don't want to extend on the top side, then don't play a high move on L16.
You planned to make a moyo extending from the right side. Then you let him leak in from the top right corner and the bottom right corner (from the bottom right even 2 times- move 80). Plan failed. Game over. That's the downside to moyo play. If your moyo fails, you fail. There will not be a chance to recover from that (if your opponent doesn't usually makes huuuuuge mistakes).
Anyway, it's an interesting opening. I hope you post more games about that.
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Bill Spight
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Re: OGS Game between L19ers topazg and ethanb
The usual caveats apply. Especially in the bottom right corner. It is both interesting and confusing.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: OGS Game between L19ers topazg and ethanb
Bill considers 1, and then ultimately rejects it because the sacrifce after 9 does not favor black:
But how about 9 like this:
But how about 9 like this:
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PROVOK3
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Re: OGS Game between L19ers topazg and ethanb
The opening sequence looks so weird. I wonder if any pros have attempted an opening anywhere close as strange as the one you pulled off.
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Shaddy
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Re: OGS Game between L19ers topazg and ethanb
Go to http://www.gogod.co.uk/NewInGo/NewInGo.htm, number 73 on the right, last page. I think that opening trumps this one by a mile..
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topazg
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Re: OGS Game between L19ers topazg and ethanb
Many thanks again to all of you for your comments. As there has been so much thought and effort put into this, I've added a couple of the ideas and suggestions to my original and sent it to Jeff Chang (KGS 9d) for a paid proper game review, and will post it here when it comes back.
What a great bunch you all are
What a great bunch you all are
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ethanb
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Re: OGS Game between L19ers topazg and ethanb
Sorry I haven't responded in here - I saw this thread but didn't feel like I had time to contribute. But the probe to which topazg thinks I should tenuki...
I didn't think I could win this capturing race because of the weakness in my rear lines:
I didn't think I could win this capturing race because of the weakness in my rear lines:
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topazg
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Re: OGS Game between L19ers topazg and ethanb
Interestingly, the connection was not as big as we all thought
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ethanb
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Re: OGS Game between L19ers topazg and ethanb
Much like Shuko, I play the first 50 moves of the game very well. Then come the blunders.
Unlike Fujisawa-sensei, I don't stop at just one blunder.
Thank you very much for getting the game analyzed, Graham. And many thanks to Jeff Chang for the insightful commentary. Next one's on me.
Unlike Fujisawa-sensei, I don't stop at just one blunder.
Thank you very much for getting the game analyzed, Graham. And many thanks to Jeff Chang for the insightful commentary. Next one's on me.