11k vs 15k friendly match

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Mnemonic
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11k vs 15k friendly match

Post by Mnemonic »

Hi, all.

I've recently played a game against a good friend of mine, and thought I'd post it online for a review. We are friends at the local club and play a lot against each other, and although I'm a bit stronger our games are all pretty interesting.
To the game: It was going pretty well (or so I thought) until I forced black to kill 2 of my groups, at which point I resigned. :-?


Pointers for both sides would be appreciated. Thanks and thanks for maintaining an awesome forum. :mrgreen:

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Zcartac_vs_Mnemonic.sgf
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While I was teaching the game to a friend of mine, my mother from the other room:
"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"
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SolarBear
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Re: 11k vs 15k friendly match

Post by SolarBear »

I'm not going to do a full review, but my general feeling is that Black's play is way too passive. Handicap stones are made to attack ! For instance, I'd play B14 around K16. B28 is another passive, territory-hugging response. Q12 would attack the stone, weakening the N16 group.
Heretix [24k]: Anyone care to give a little bit of commentary, this game is confusing...
mattn [1d]: commentary: "oh my god"
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Re: 11k vs 15k friendly match

Post by Dusk Eagle »

Here's a quick review. The bulk of it focus around Move 28, but there's some other ideas as well.
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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Mnemonic
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Re: 11k vs 15k friendly match

Post by Mnemonic »

Thanks guys. I'll be sure to pass it along.
While I was teaching the game to a friend of mine, my mother from the other room:
"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"
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Magicwand
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Re: 11k vs 15k friendly match

Post by Magicwand »

group on top...is it really captured?
i think there is a way to save them.

if you save them you win.

i will let you figure it out.
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Mnemonic
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Re: 11k vs 15k friendly match

Post by Mnemonic »

group on top...is it really captured?
i think there is a way to save them.

if you save them you win.
Yeah, that was my estimation too. I had a lot of aji to play with, so I left the group alone for a long time because I was confident in my ability to outread my opponent. Well, I guess that didn't happen.
I'll have another look at it. :study:

Just to know where I should start looking: Did I still have a chance after move 152, or was it too late?
While I was teaching the game to a friend of mine, my mother from the other room:
"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"
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Dusk Eagle
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Re: 11k vs 15k friendly match

Post by Dusk Eagle »

I'm pretty sure you can save it at the point you resigned.
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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Mnemonic
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Re: 11k vs 15k friendly match

Post by Mnemonic »

hm, after some reading I think I found a ko sequence
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Ko?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 2 . 6 5 X 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . 1 X X X O X 8 9 0 . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X 7 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |[/go]
But I still don't know what to do with this
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White dead?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . b a . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 2 O C 1 X X X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |[/go]
a and b both die (as far as I can tell) and if White plays 2 then Black plays 1 and :ec: becomes a false eye.
While I was teaching the game to a friend of mine, my mother from the other room:
"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"
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Re: 11k vs 15k friendly match

Post by Dusk Eagle »

In the first diagram, you're really close. You have an easy way to live at that point that doesn't involve ko.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . O X X X O X 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X 1 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |[/go]
In the second diagram, I've given you the first move of the sequence. So, do you see how white can live now? This next move is key.

Hint:
Throw-in
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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Re: 11k vs 15k friendly match

Post by topazg »

@Dusk Eagle:
The first alternative to Black playing in the top left fails for the same reason:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . a X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 4 3 O b 1 X X X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X 2 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |[/go]
a and b are miai, but how about this?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . 9 . . 2 X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 8 7 O 0 1 X X X O X 4 5 6 . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X 3 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |[/go]
This still looks dead to me ... Throwin first doesn't seem to work either?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 1 X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O 3 2 X X X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O 4 2 X X X O X 7 6 . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X 5 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O 8 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |[/go]
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Dusk Eagle
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Re: 11k vs 15k friendly match

Post by Dusk Eagle »

@topazg
D'oh, I'm wrong. I completely missed the connection at :b2:.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . 1 X X X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |[/go]
I guess I really should have noticed that. Oh well, I'll try to remember shapes like this for next time.

Anyway, it doesn't seem like white's alive at the end anymore. So now where is he?



Conclusion:I don't know where white is alive.
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We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
Top
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Mnemonic
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Re: 11k vs 15k friendly match

Post by Mnemonic »

Well, I looked at it some more and couldn't figure it out, so opened your hide tags. Seem like the problem is well beyond my abilities. I only found a simplified Ko sequence by just looking at it. I had to do the rest with placing stones (which still got me nowhere).

But I guess it was still too early to resign, my opponents reading should be even worse than mine. I should have just tried it and hoped for a mistake. :-?
While I was teaching the game to a friend of mine, my mother from the other room:
"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"
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Magicwand
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Re: 11k vs 15k friendly match

Post by Magicwand »

topazg wrote:@Dusk Eagle:
The first alternative to Black playing in the top left fails for the same reason:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . a X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 4 3 O b 1 X X X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X 2 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |[/go]
a and b are miai, but how about this?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . 9 . . 2 X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 8 7 O 0 1 X X X O X 4 5 6 . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X 3 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |[/go]
This still looks dead to me ... Throwin first doesn't seem to work either?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 1 X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O 3 2 X X X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O 4 2 X X X O X 7 6 . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X 5 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O 8 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |[/go]
yea..you are absolutely correct.
i really didnt look at it too seriously and missed it.

but at their level i think it has good chance of living.
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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