When should black start to worry a lot?
In which move black has pretty much lost (a.k.a. where would only a successful, wicked kamikaze attack change anything or a big blunder by white)?
Of course every other comment also welcome.
Positional Analysis:4k-4k KGS Sanrensei
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sholvar
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Positional Analysis:4k-4k KGS Sanrensei
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sholvar
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Re: Positional Analysis:4k-4k KGS Sanrensei
in this case black looks way overconcentrated when he takes. White also has not much reason to take this white stone out of its misery there. It only creates a very, very, very weak group that has no real meaning.
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youngjae
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Re: Positional Analysis:4k-4k KGS Sanrensei
Even at move 100 the game is already over. White has all 4 corners and access to the center,
I think even a kamikaze attack would not do the trick at this point.
Okay, some general feedback
Move 21: A bit strange. Honte is M16. If you want to cut, be patient your chance will come.
Move 45: Take the ko! So what if White gets another move inside you sphere of influence. That is where you are strongest. Bring it on!
Moves 51 and 53: Okay... I do not really understand these moves at all. By move 59 you have two groups both with open skirts, So there is almost no profit to be made here. Maybe you were happy just minimizing White's profit, but you were also solidifying White's profit and you did not really benefit from it.
Move 61: I am going to call this the losing move. Nothing can be gained from a move like this. You made a weak group and White was able to chase it out into the center destroying any hope there was for expanding your right side.
I hope this helps. Feel free to ask any questions or make any comments based on the above.
Good luck in your future games!
I think even a kamikaze attack would not do the trick at this point.
Okay, some general feedback
Move 21: A bit strange. Honte is M16. If you want to cut, be patient your chance will come.
Move 45: Take the ko! So what if White gets another move inside you sphere of influence. That is where you are strongest. Bring it on!
Moves 51 and 53: Okay... I do not really understand these moves at all. By move 59 you have two groups both with open skirts, So there is almost no profit to be made here. Maybe you were happy just minimizing White's profit, but you were also solidifying White's profit and you did not really benefit from it.
Move 61: I am going to call this the losing move. Nothing can be gained from a move like this. You made a weak group and White was able to chase it out into the center destroying any hope there was for expanding your right side.
I hope this helps. Feel free to ask any questions or make any comments based on the above.
Good luck in your future games!
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sholvar
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Re: Positional Analysis:4k-4k KGS Sanrensei
I would conclude from your analysis that white can at this time can not transform the Ko in the corner to a living group and therefore it might be a mistake of white in the first place to play the sansan invasion.
If that can not be successful at this time...
I would assume that the Position after Move 25 is favorable for black. And from that I would assume that to the strange move of 21 White has to respond in a different manner.
If nobody can argue against that: What would be a better response for white to Move 21?
Interesting! We could also ask "Why is black 21 a bad move?" and should come to the same answer.
If that can not be successful at this time...
I would assume that the Position after Move 25 is favorable for black. And from that I would assume that to the strange move of 21 White has to respond in a different manner.
If nobody can argue against that: What would be a better response for white to Move 21?
Interesting! We could also ask "Why is black 21 a bad move?" and should come to the same answer.
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youngjae
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Re: Positional Analysis:4k-4k KGS Sanrensei
Okay, well lets do some analysis! Those are exciting
Here is variant on a standard pattern. Often after
Black will play 'a' to prevent White from playing there and restricting Black's growth. In this case though, lets say that Black wants the corner territory and so continues with the below sequence instead. Black can now push through at 'b'. It is worth mentioning that there is still aji in the corner so this is not definitely Black's territory just yet.
In the game, I believe White's mistake was to invade too early.
At this point, White does not really have enough ko material.
The 3,3 invasion should have been left in reserve.
I think if White simply blocked at
the game is still playable.
If you compare the position below with the variant in the above diagram, White looks better below.
In this position as well, there is still aji in the corner that you will have to worry about. The White thickness at the top also nullifies Black's at the bottom.
Back to the original question though. From what I have suggested, I don't think White 'a' in the game was bad. If White really wanted to play something else I suppose connecting at 'b' and splitting Black's groups might be possible, but it seems unnecessary and overly aggressive. White may be able to aim at 'd' but this could be disastrous if Black responds correctly. After 'b' the 3,3 invasion seems to live, but White will have to give up some stones.
White might also consider attaching with 'c' and living in the corner, but this makes Black strong on the outside and Black could then aim at 'e' to leave White's group floating and baseless.
Here is variant on a standard pattern. Often after
Black will play 'a' to prevent White from playing there and restricting Black's growth. In this case though, lets say that Black wants the corner territory and so continues with the below sequence instead. Black can now push through at 'b'. It is worth mentioning that there is still aji in the corner so this is not definitely Black's territory just yet.In the game, I believe White's mistake was to invade too early.
At this point, White does not really have enough ko material.
The 3,3 invasion should have been left in reserve.
I think if White simply blocked at
the game is still playable.If you compare the position below with the variant in the above diagram, White looks better below.
In this position as well, there is still aji in the corner that you will have to worry about. The White thickness at the top also nullifies Black's at the bottom.
Back to the original question though. From what I have suggested, I don't think White 'a' in the game was bad. If White really wanted to play something else I suppose connecting at 'b' and splitting Black's groups might be possible, but it seems unnecessary and overly aggressive. White may be able to aim at 'd' but this could be disastrous if Black responds correctly. After 'b' the 3,3 invasion seems to live, but White will have to give up some stones.
White might also consider attaching with 'c' and living in the corner, but this makes Black strong on the outside and Black could then aim at 'e' to leave White's group floating and baseless.
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tapir
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Re: Positional Analysis:4k-4k KGS Sanrensei
youngjae wrote:Okay, well lets do some analysis! Those are exciting
Back to the original question though. From what I have suggested, I don't think White 'a' in the game was bad. If White really wanted to play something else I suppose connecting at 'b' and splitting Black's groups might be possible, but it seems unnecessary and overly aggressive. White may be able to aim at 'd' but this could be disastrous if Black responds correctly. After 'b' the 3,3 invasion seems to live, but White will have to give up some stones.
White might also consider attaching with 'c' and living in the corner, but this makes Black strong on the outside and Black could then aim at 'e' to leave White's group floating and baseless.
Thinking too much here is dangerous.
White should simply connect - but it is so hard to appreciate the obvious move. With the corner open, it will be either a running fight that favours white (and destroys a good chunk of the black framework) or if Black returns to joseki by living on the upper side, then White can close him in, with a better result than in the normal joseki.If later White has the opportunity to play on the top ''f'' is nice.
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sholvar
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Re: Positional Analysis:4k-4k KGS Sanrensei
@youngjae:
Your ideas seem reasonable. From your idea of starting with the original joseki, I also want to suggest something:
This position ends in Sente for black, without a base for white and weaknesses at a,b and c.
(Can 7 be played on a? Not sure.)
And finally, since the blacks cut earlier allows white to tennuki, I agree that the top side might be very interesting (instead of a weakish wall, connecting to the top left corner, making probably some points in the process and staying stronger for a Moyo on the left side of the board:
Your ideas seem reasonable. From your idea of starting with the original joseki, I also want to suggest something:
This position ends in Sente for black, without a base for white and weaknesses at a,b and c.
(Can 7 be played on a? Not sure.)
And finally, since the blacks cut earlier allows white to tennuki, I agree that the top side might be very interesting (instead of a weakish wall, connecting to the top left corner, making probably some points in the process and staying stronger for a Moyo on the left side of the board:
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youngjae
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Re: Positional Analysis:4k-4k KGS Sanrensei
tapir wrote:
Thinking too much here is dangerous.
If later White has the opportunity to play on the top ''f'' is nice.
Okay this is an interesting point, but I don't agree with this way of playing based on the current board position. I assume below is the connection you are referring to.
In this situation White has two weak groups, Black has only one, and the fight is close to Black's thickness. I would argue Black has the advantage. Also, while we are mentioning connecting, sure White has connected three stones, but Black's group has split straight through the middle of White's position. Maybe we will have to agree to disagree but this does not look good at all to me
. My teacher taught me that if you have two weak groups, you have lost the game. Obviously in amateur games the scope for stuffing up is far greater, but still making two weak groups in the opening does not seem to be a good strategy.
As White I would feel much more comfortable with the position below. Stable groups, Black's thickness is somewhat nullified and enough aji for later to keep Black worried... heaven
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tapir
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Re: Positional Analysis:4k-4k KGS Sanrensei
youngjae wrote:tapir wrote:
Thinking too much here is dangerous.
If later White has the opportunity to play on the top ''f'' is nice.
Okay this is an interesting point, but I don't agree with this way of playing based on the current board position. I assume below is the connection you are referring to.
In this situation White has two weak groups, Black has only one, and the fight is close to Black's thickness. I would argue Black has the advantage. Also, while we are mentioning connecting, sure White has connected three stones, but Black's group has split straight through the middle of White's position. Maybe we will have to agree to disagree but this does not look good at all to me
My teacher taught me that if you have two weak groups, you have lost the game. Obviously in amateur games the scope for stuffing up is far greater, but still making two weak groups in the opening does not seem to be a good strategy.
The problem is probably that we stop reading after B1, not looking even a bit into the fight. My teacher is telling me the same but still laughed at me for not connecting against this peep in a game of mine. Black can not fight strongly because it has no base yet. I don't think White is bad at all even if playing only ''b'' now and taking the corner next. If Black defends the corner ''a'' next is strong.
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youngjae
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Re: Positional Analysis:4k-4k KGS Sanrensei
tapir wrote:The problem is probably that we stop reading after B1, not looking even a bit into the fight. My teacher is telling me the same but still laughed at me for not connecting against this peep in a game of mine. Black can not fight strongly because it has no base yet. I don't think White is bad at all even if playing only ''b'' now and taking the corner next. If Black defends the corner ''a'' next is strong.
I agree completely
. Obviously reading ahead is very important in this situation. I would be interested to see the game your teacher reviewed to compare it with the current position. Especially if you said he laughed at you. In Korea they usually just hit us with a ruler. I actually did think about the position a little before posting, but I don't have a board at the moment so it is just off the top of my head. However, I had assumed White would extend to 'c' and Black would push through with 'a'. However, after your post I suddenly realized that White could hane at 'a' instead.
Okay below seems too good for Black to me. White gets the corner, but Black gets to develop on the right hand side and then saves his group while stealing White's base in the second diagram.
White also has to worry about a follow-up at 'a' and a cutting point at 'b'. White could probably continue by pressing with 'c', but Black may be able to push up and cut which could be a headache later.
Okay, lets assume that instead of playing atari at
directly, White exchanges 
for 
first. If White tries to atari now...This time when White ataris at
, Black plays 
here instead. is at 
and Black is again satisfied with the result.White's strongest resistance seems to be to block at
after Black's hane. This gets very complicated. White has several options. Connecting at 'a' or 'b', or even try out the atari at 'c' again. The atari does not end well for White due to a shortage of liberties. The hanging connection at 'b' leads to a capturing race in which I read that Black won. White 'a' seems to be the strongest response but...Even if Black is not confident about the fight in the corner, he can settle for living with the sequence up to
. After this, 'a' and 'b' are miai for life due to White's cutting point at 'c'If Black is still unhappy with the 'Fighting 3' positions there is another option. Instead of 'a' Black can simply extend to
. White will most likely be able to live in the corner now. But it may damage the 
stones in the process, especially if White plays a move like 'a'.Okay, it is very late at night so that is all I will go through for the moment. Due to sleepiness I may have missed something but I hope some of this is useful or interesting nonetheless. Overall looking at the diagrams above, I still think Black is better off, but because I was looking for sequences which support my point, I could just be projecting. I would be interested to see what you have in mind for White Tapir
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tapir
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Re: Positional Analysis:4k-4k KGS Sanrensei
I did think very hard in the game I played - which was not identical but pretty similar after all - and it never occured to me that connecting there might be even considered. The main point is probably that after turning on the top side with 
, white has only one weak group. Which either goes first in the struggle or has an open corner next to it. The third diagram is probably the most important. What can Black do here? (I moved the last one to BQM525 at Sensei's Library as well.)
(White settled)
(White has the corner, outside strength, and Black only bad aji. Black can't even stop white at ''a'' here.)
Black is acutely short of liberties. Too short to break through, as far as I read. Some exchange like a, b, c may happen. I would prefer White there tremendous strength and still some aji in the corner to work with.
, white has only one weak group. Which either goes first in the struggle or has an open corner next to it. The third diagram is probably the most important. What can Black do here? (I moved the last one to BQM525 at Sensei's Library as well.)youngjae wrote:tapir wrote:The problem is probably that we stop reading after B1, not looking even a bit into the fight. My teacher is telling me the same but still laughed at me for not connecting against this peep in a game of mine. Black can not fight strongly because it has no base yet. I don't think White is bad at all even if playing only ''b'' now and taking the corner next. If Black defends the corner ''a'' next is strong.
I agree completely
I actually did think about the position a little before posting, but I don't have a board at the moment so it is just off the top of my head. However, I had assumed White would extend to 'c' and Black would push through with 'a'. However, after your post I suddenly realized that White could hane at 'a' instead.
(White settled)
(White has the corner, outside strength, and Black only bad aji. Black can't even stop white at ''a'' here.)
Black is acutely short of liberties. Too short to break through, as far as I read. Some exchange like a, b, c may happen. I would prefer White there tremendous strength and still some aji in the corner to work with.
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sholvar
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youngjae
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Re: Positional Analysis:4k-4k KGS Sanrensei
tapir wrote:
Obviously the second two diagrams are too good for White. So this is really Black's best option isn't it?
I like
here, I did not even consider it last night but looking at the position with fresh eyes, I would agree White in this diagram is playable. Black could aim at cutting off White's stones with 'b' but if White simply runs out with his group the cut at 'a' becomes a problem for Black. Because of this I would agree that White not has no weak group.Sholvar made the point that Black's moyo has not suffered though and is now getting quite large. Black can also play around 'c' to cover his weakness at 'a' and aim at the group below while expanding. I would say for that reason Black is not bad either.
Tapir I know you said thinking too much is dangerous, but you did not really comment on the diagram below at that point in time. So I am curious to know, You said that White should have connected, but would you agree that the diagram below is also playable?
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sholvar
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Re: Positional Analysis:4k-4k KGS Sanrensei
@youngjae: Why do you not say somthing about this exchange:
If black for example plays on one of the x spots and can establish a ladder breaker here, white would be happy, if he killed the aji. But if the ladder breaker fails to be successful, white feels more happy this way, keeping its ability to make unconditional life in the upper corner.
Because (b)
- withought ladder breaker is not playable
- the ladder breaker might be gote, allowing white to play the exchange later
- even if there is a ladder breaker and black decides to cut, white might decide that it can sacrifice the 2 stones later, just using them as aji to invade the center
- white might be able to form a shape that allows to cut black in a net, or a ladder to the upside later
All these points accounted, I would not account (b) as a strong threat now, while unconditional life in the corner is at least and exchange of 15 sure points in whites favor.
If black for example plays on one of the x spots and can establish a ladder breaker here, white would be happy, if he killed the aji. But if the ladder breaker fails to be successful, white feels more happy this way, keeping its ability to make unconditional life in the upper corner.
Because (b)
- withought ladder breaker is not playable
- the ladder breaker might be gote, allowing white to play the exchange later
- even if there is a ladder breaker and black decides to cut, white might decide that it can sacrifice the 2 stones later, just using them as aji to invade the center
- white might be able to form a shape that allows to cut black in a net, or a ladder to the upside later
All these points accounted, I would not account (b) as a strong threat now, while unconditional life in the corner is at least and exchange of 15 sure points in whites favor.