A question to "Direction of Play"- and Opening-Principles

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Re: A question to "Direction of Play"- and Opening-Principle

Post by tapir »

John Fairbairn wrote:There is a valuable proverb applicable to these situations: Approach on the widest side.

Two points should be made about this. One is that "wide" here strictly means wide in a strategic sense (lots of scope for plans or development) but in practice just counting the empty sapces is usually good enough. The second is that, like all proverbs, it is is not always true. However, whereas with some proverbs the right answer is the very opposite of what the proverb says, in this case even if there is a better move elsewhere, the move chosen by the proverb will very rarely be bad (for, I hope, fairly obvious reasons - being in an open space and all that).

I'd like to note something that I have observed at the strong amateur level: There seems to be a preference for disruptive side-taking over constructive side-taking.


I found myself surprised recently to read (forgot where) some problems where the solution was to approach in between the extension (at 11-3 in this cases) and the star point because there were some strength behind the 11-3 stone on the side and isolating this stone was considered better than approaching on the open side. That leads me to the point I like to made - those problems were presented once with 10-3 extension (solution was the open side approach) and once with 11-3 extension (solution was disruptive approach, because enough space for ideal extension available inside). Direction of play questions gain tremendously when presented that way - with slightly different positions leading to different directions. You can grasp a bit of the thought process behind the proverb, instead of blindly following it, that is.
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Re: A question to "Direction of Play"- and Opening-Principle

Post by John Fairbairn »

Direction of play questions gain tremendously when presented that way - with slightly different positions leading to different directions.


I'm sure you're right, but there is possibly a more fundamental point to get right first. I translated the Direction of Play book, and so I have naturally followed its progress a little. I have noted that the concept has become one of the most popular among western players. It seems to me far more popular than its equivalent in Japanese books, and much more so than in Korean or Chinese books.

It is in fact something of a western construct. The Japanese refers to the direction of the stones. That's rather a different focus. I chose direction of play rather than stones as the result of a discussion with Stuart Dowsey, but our preference was frankly based more on what sounded right to the English ear than on what was accurate but clumsy. I have often wondered since then whether it was a mistaken approach. I think the actual text of the book makes it clear that the directionality of the existing stones on the board is the main factor, but (a) that might be a wrong assumption, and (b) it doesn't apply to those who hear and think they grasp the concept of direction of play but haven't read the book.

Maybe it's splitting hairs, but I think it might just be worth harping on about the directionality of stones rather than the direction of play. One of the problems with fuseki analysis is that there are many guidelines floating around untethered. Balance between fourth and third lines, approach on the widest side, access to the centre, keep the opponent separated, direction of play, etc, etc. Each one is easy enough to understand in itself, but the difficulty lies in creating some sort of hierarchy - to establish which guideline to use in preference to another when they both seem possible. My impression of Kajiwara's book was that he meant to establish part of this hierarchy by shifting focus away from the next move back to the previous moves. You analyse the directionality of the existing stones, and if they have any you act on it as a top priority. Only if there is no strong directionality do you then look elsewhere for guidelines such as "approach on the wider side". Of course, Kajiwara was too dogmatic for the taste of many, but surely the idea of establishing a hierarchy is a valuable one.

Using this idea of hierarchy with the concept of "disruption", or alternatively establishing a presence in many parts of the board, if I had a pupil who was talking about this sort of play, I'd want to be sure that he was first applying even more basic principles such as a maximum of five groups or a maximum of one weak group, or if he was claiming to keep the opponent separated, was he actually separating weak groups.

There are also macro principles at an even higher level, and I'd want to see evidence that these were understood, too. For example, there may seem to be little difference between invading his territory rather than defending your own, so that you both end up with small territories instead of both with large ones (especially to those of a mathematical bent who routinely give weight to thought process such as 61-60 is no different from 11-10). However, at what I'd regard as a higher level of thought, there are consierations of, say, risk. There may be an unacceptable risk in going first and giving your hand away in a more open and unpredictable position. Going first by invading/disrupting and settling the position (and of course ending in gote if all goes normally) may well give the opponent a big advantage now that the smoke and much of the unpredictability have cleared. (You can, of course, go up yet another level and say it all depends on time limits, but the principle is the same.)

All rules can be ignored, but it does seem wise to at least try them out first, and in a hierarchical order, in exactly the same way as physicians seem to worj when presented with an array of symptoms or doing triage.

To summarise, I am positing (not with huge confidence, though) that directionality of stones (analysis of existing positions) belongs on a higher level than what is usually understood by direction of play (development of future play), and so must come first. Further (harking back to my previous post), it would be ideal if all this happened in the right order as the result of forming good habits.
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Re: A question to "Direction of Play"- and Opening-Principle

Post by Kirby »

Magicwand wrote:
Kirby wrote:
Magicwand wrote:...

if you are saying that "b" is better than "a" in above diag then it is wrong in theory.
"a" is correct direction in theory.
"b" will be incorrect direction in theory.
"1" is very good move but lacks the control and initiative. (i am not saying it is wrong.. some pros play such moves only and win)
if i have to compare a,b,c then a>1>b


My intuition is actually also "a", but if I read Bill's post correctly, he stated a reason for preferring "b" to "a": The top is not very developable. Therefore, I assumed my feeling about "a" was wrong.

I was wondering if there is a concrete reason that you like "a" better than "b" - since, if I understood Bill correctly, he is saying that the top is not developable so "b" is better than "a".

Could you explain why "a" is correct direction in theory?


first reason:
i have read many many professional comments during the time i studyed go.
i remember many comment about direction of the play and professionals commented 'a' is correct direction.

second reason:
i have played many many games and in smilar situations my feeling says that "a" is a better move than "b"

thired reason:
analysis
top is not developabe?? i dont understand. i think top can be big white territory with help of the "a" approach.

if black plays big knights move towards white influcence next move at "a" is practically sente that threatening white group.
so white answer at "2" ?? then black somewhat solidified the corner in sente and go to "3" which is the biggest move on the board.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . O . a 2 . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


This analysis makes sense to me. I wonder if Bill has a refutation (eg. Why isn't the top developable?).

For now, I'm inclined to think that approaching from the top side would be more useful than approaching from the right.
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Re: A question to "Direction of Play"- and Opening-Principle

Post by Kirby »

John Fairbairn wrote:...

It's straying into the realms of wild speculation, but I wonder whether this is a major difference between go in east and west. Eastern go has more teachers who can teach good habits, of course, but they also have a culture where the old forcefully correct the young. At all events, I do think that more notice should be taken of points such as JB's, and of course older people should be less tempted to shrink from making them.


I am not sure if I am still considered a "young person" :-p, but I am inclined to believe that it is more beneficial to objectively weigh the content of what someone says than their age or experience... In that sense, I feel that old and young alike should not shrink from making statements - if they have reason for making them. Being objective, however, is somewhat difficult.
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Re: A question to "Direction of Play"- and Opening-Principle

Post by Bill Spight »

Kirby wrote:My intuition is actually also "a", but if I read Bill's post correctly, he stated a reason for preferring "b" to "a": The top is not very developable. Therefore, I assumed my feeling about "a" was wrong.

I was wondering if there is a concrete reason that you like "a" better than "b" - since, if I understood Bill correctly, he is saying that the top is not developable so "b" is better than "a".


Let me be clearer about why I said that the top side is not very developable in the second example. First, White has already extended to the 8th file. Compare that with the other position, where Black has extended to the 6th file. Second, White has extended on the 3d line. In the other position, Black has extended on the 4th line. Third, Black can move with the single stone, or threaten to do so. In the other position, the Black group is secure and strong. There is simply not very much potential profit for White on the top side.

I think that this fits with what JF said about approaching from the wider side. (Although I opt for the wedge, instead of either approach. :))
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Re: A question to "Direction of Play"- and Opening-Principle

Post by Kirby »

Well, I did a search on gobase for the full game position. There were 21 hits with white approaching from the top at "a" in the original diagram, whereas there were 55 hits with white approaching along the right side with "b"...

I wonder if the influence obtained by white after the black 3-3 invasion is less than my intuition tells me.

It sounds like the rationale for preferring "b" to "a" is that the wall from the 3-3 is not that strong, and white has only a 3rd line stone extending from the wall...

It's still hard for me to "feel it", though.
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Re: A question to "Direction of Play"- and Opening-Principle

Post by John Fairbairn »

I am not sure if I am still considered a "young person" :-p, but I am inclined to believe that it is more beneficial to objectively weigh the content of what someone says than their age or experience... In that sense, I feel that old and young alike should not shrink from making statements - if they have reason for making them. Being objective, however, is somewhat difficult.


Older heads are not necessarily wiser. At the back of my mind was a section in the latest book I have just sent off to Slate & Shell (The Insha Game) which recounts the turbulence just before the formation of the Nihon Ki-in. The older players were in serious danger of losing control of their pupils because of the mess created by the older players' petty factionalism. It was even more serious after the second world war with the Igo Shinsha rebellion, when young people in Japan generally wouldn't listen to their elders because of the mess of the war they had got them into.

But I still cringe with embarrassment at episodes when I was young and thought I was giving weight to objectivity and logic over age and experience. I was not only convinced I was right, but I often couldn't even see a way I could possibly be wrong. Now older, and I hope wiser (certainly wider as I Freudianly just mistyped), I have acquired consequently a particular distrust of logic, and I don't rate objectivity much higher. One trap I often fell into when young was winning the battle and forgetting about the war. In that context, note that I would rank experience rather higher than age. However, one other thing I learned quite late in life was that age is not merely a repository for experience. In particular, I wish when young that I'd had the patience aging teaches. I still haven't got it, but at least I can see it beckoning.
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Re: A question to "Direction of Play"- and Opening-Principle

Post by Bill Spight »

I would like to comment on the magnitude of the differences between choices in these examples. I think that they are less than 1/2 point.

I do not mean to disparage that magnitude. If you play 120 moves and lose, on average, 1/2 point per move, that comes to 60 points. If you lose that much by comparison with your opponent's play in the opening, you give up one stone or more in strength.

However, this kind of directional choice occurs only a few times in a game. And often the difference comes to only a small fraction of a point. That means that for one player to learn what is right by experience is almost impossible, because its effect on the probability of winning a game is slight. (I expect that learning half point differences by experience alone is possible over time for a community of players, but perhaps not for smaller differences.)

Also, this level of difference may be overcome by style. A play that theoretically loses 1/2 point may be better for a particular player than the theoretically best play, given that player's style. (I cringe as I write this, because I have heard bad players excuse bad play because "It fits my style." Better to make the best play you can and change your style, IMO.)

I think that amnal's database approach is a good one. Not that you should simply choose the most popular option in pro play, but if it differs from your intuition, try to understand why. :)
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Re: A question to "Direction of Play"- and Opening-Principle

Post by Bill Spight »

Kirby wrote:Well, I did a search on gobase for the full game position. There were 21 hits with white approaching from the top at "a" in the original diagram, whereas there were 55 hits with white approaching along the right side with "b"...


That may be enough examples to say where pro opinion leans, but that still does not say what is right. ;)

I wonder if the influence obtained by white after the black 3-3 invasion is less than my intuition tells me.


This pattern has been accepted as an even game joseki only within the last 50 years. Before that, the Suzuki-Kitani Small Joseki Dictionary considers it inferior for White. Pro opinion has obviously changed. And, who knows, maybe it will change back. :)
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Re: A question to "Direction of Play"- and Opening-Principle

Post by tapir »

Kirby wrote:
John Fairbairn wrote:...

It's straying into the realms of wild speculation, but I wonder whether this is a major difference between go in east and west. Eastern go has more teachers who can teach good habits, of course, but they also have a culture where the old forcefully correct the young. At all events, I do think that more notice should be taken of points such as JB's, and of course older people should be less tempted to shrink from making them.


I am not sure if I am still considered a "young person" :-p, but I am inclined to believe that it is more beneficial to objectively weigh the content of what someone says than their age or experience... In that sense, I feel that old and young alike should not shrink from making statements - if they have reason for making them. Being objective, however, is somewhat difficult.


During school time one year I had a bad math teacher, trying to teach us geometry. I felt his weakness, his lack of grasp on the material he was teaching. I spent my time proving him wrong, asking questions, spotting mistakes etc. I was pretty full of myself, I even passed one of the preliminaries of the math olympiad that year, proving to me how great I was. I later recognized that my effort was ill-invested, I didn't really understand what we were doing there. (Ending in the worst math grades I ever had, before or after.)

To conclude: A student who is talking too much, stops listening. However, this is an insight no teacher can force upon you, you have to recognize that for yourself.

Though I wonder: Would it be better if western teachers, who tend to teach more bad habits than eastern ones, would teach them more forcefully? My personal impression is that western players acquire most bad habits during teaching games, from the different attitude they are played with, i.e. whether the stronger player wants to see you improve or wants to defend the handicap most of all.
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Re: A question to "Direction of Play"- and Opening-Principle

Post by Nagilum »

I think the problem is my strategic thinking. That is a part that contains many aspects which i cant evaluate profoundly. And thats the seed for doubts.
The examples stated above were prototypes for situations where i have seen conflicts between two proverbs. I posted these questions to find out if i have made a FUNDAMENTAL error. In contrast to Life & Death is the acquisition of strategic knowledge a little bit harder, because an error isn't always so obvious like an emty triangle.
According to the answers given so far i realize that sometimes i am thinking too much in proverb categories. I often encounter situations where i feel uneasy when i have to make a strategic decision justified only on my own positional judgement. Because i am not always very confident I try to compensate this with proverbs. Although i am not always able to judge how important a proverb-move is in comparison to other moves.
At the moment i ask myself if i want too much explanations and analysis. Perhaps this is indeed a weastern symptom that i want to have a shortcut instead of making slowly progress via experience and just trying out.
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Re: A question to "Direction of Play"- and Opening-Principle

Post by Kirby »

tapir wrote:...To conclude: A student who is talking too much, stops listening. However, this is an insight no teacher can force upon you, you have to recognize that for yourself.
...


I think I agree with this... Although, as a "student", I am reluctant with who I choose as a teacher :)
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